Template talk:Expand section/Archive 2 Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Expand_section/Archive_2

This is an archive of past discussions about Template:Expand section. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

FYI

 – Question answered.

I'm not really sure what the purpose of this tag is, beyond its use in sections that have been left nearly blank as stubs to be filled. How large can a section be and still need this tag? Can I go to an already long section (like one of those infernal "Criticism" sections) and add "This section requires expansion" to it? (Specifically I'm wondering about this section.) (And what would be the right place to discuss this?) Shreevatsa (talk) 19:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Use the |1= parameter to add why the template is being added. The template isn't about length, it's about completeness of information, so it can be used for any section that has obvious missing information, even if it is otherwise well-developed. If it seems over-long, this is a good reason to rearrange the information, e.g. in two sections or in a series of subsections. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 00:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Unresolved

 – This appears to have been left hanging.

Moved to Template talk:Expand

 – Subsection is Type --Tothwolf (talk) 09:47, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} A reading of the WP:AMBOX guideline indicates that the "expand" family of templates should probably have type=content. Some templates in this family have already been changed that way. Perhaps this should be changed as well for uniformity. Tijfo098 (talk) 05:46, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

• This view would appear to be supported by observing similar templates in WP:TMC#Expand and add. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 06:00, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Not done for now: I suspect this will be contentious so I ask that you discuss this somewhere central (eg Wikipedia talk:Template messages) and obtain a consensus. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There's a RfC at Wikipediatalk:Manual_of_Style_(article_message_boxes)#.22Expand.22_templates. Template:expand was already edited (before the RfC) even though it's protected, so YMMV. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved from Template talk:Expand

 – Template:Expand was WP:TFD'd.

Coming full circle:

• Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup#Expand and add shows that all related (non-deprecated) expansion-request templates have already been made orange, e.g. Template:Missing information, The only templates cataloged there that aren't are this one (blue), and a few addition-request templates (please add ISBNs, etc.), which are yellow (style) because they're about presentation/formatting of citations.
• The discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Article message boxes/Archive 9#"Expand" templates suggests "no templates closely-related to {{expand}} [are] being classified as type=notice (blue), but a large number in the relevant category of WP:TMC, and particularly WP:TMC#Expand and add ... are type=content (orange), so consistency would suggest that {{expand}} should be color-coded the same." There was no serious disagreement with this (the one challenge was answered adequately). The rest of the thread (aside from flamey noise about {{Expand}}) is, in fact, a clear presentation of evidence that making the "expand" templates blue "notice" amboxes constituted an attempt to change the MoS without consensus. The only one that is still blue is this one, because the discussion about fixing it was re-routed to {{Expand}}'s talk page, and it was then TfD'd (it only still exists for historical reasons).
• The discussion at Template talk:Expand#Type (to the extent that the rancorous gripe-fest there about the future of that template in particular can be sorted through at all for relevance to this template) clearly differentiated between the templates, with {{Expand section}}, like {{Empty section}}, seen as flagging a specific actual content cleanup issue (i.e. orange ambox), while {{Expand}} was seen as a highly general, vague notice box (blue ambox), and this was actually why it was TfD'd.
• The rationale formerly applied to {{Expand}} doesn't apply to this template. User:Tothwolf at the MoS discussion clearly summarized {{Expand}} as a non-"warning" template, a general request for editorial attention to make an article better, not an indication that something was wrong with the content. {{Expand section}} is quite the opposite; its principal purpose is to flag a section as obviously missing crucial information (thus its "requires" wording; it is not a request, it is a notice of an article failing). In the exact wording of MOS:AMBOX: "[Orange] Content: Problems with the content of an article, i.e., what the article actually says" vs. "[Blue] Notice: Information readers/editors should be aware of".

Ergo, the request made on 11 November 2010 to change:

|type=notice

to

|type=content

is clearly supported by consensus everywhere anything relevant has come up. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 18:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC) — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 18:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please update the template with a slightly improved version that can be found on the sandbox. Debresser (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Could we use the subst parameter as well, because it simplifies a lot of the code? (See sandbox.) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:23, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

How could I miss that? Of course. Debresser (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

You also forgot the date parameter, which is needed for the categorising. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I haven't edited seriously here in quite a while. Then again, I got married to a great girl! You have to get lucky once in your life. :) See also the top of my talkpage. Debresser (talk) 19:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Heh, congratulations! Obviously far more important than anything here. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. So real life is getting the better of me. :) Debresser (talk)

How come this is the only template that doesn't have the date shown without having to click edit? Every other maintenance template (even the {{citation needed}} template, which shows the date in a "tooltip") has the date shown, so why not this one? —Compdude¹²³ 19:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Well? Is anyone going to answer my question, or perhaps change this template? Having the date shown would be extremely helpful. Thanks, Compdude¹²³ 15:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

{{ambox}} is not currently coded to display the date when it is used its small version. I guess this was because the box was intended to be small and this would add quite a bit of text. I think this was discussed somewhere before. Try the archives at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Article message boxes. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Compdude, I only found a brief discussion about displaying the date, but the feelings were as I suggested above. (See Template talk:Expand section/Archive 1#Ready to deploy (section break 2).) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a discussion currently taking place at Template talk:Unreferenced section#Date not showing about this very issue. Any comments there would be welcome. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:58, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

On the list of Treaties of the United States, there is no Treaty between the United States and the Kindom of Hawaii that was signed on December 20, 1849, why is this?

Nachopadilla (talk) 03:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• You'll need to ask on the talk page for that list of treaties. —C.Fred (talk) 03:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Which you can find at List of United States treaties. Debresser (talk) 10:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Currently the template renders (something like):

This section requires expansion. (August
2012)

however the splitting of the month and year is a little untidy. Could a <br/> be inserted so that the template renders (something like):

This section requires expansion.
(August 2012)

GFHandel ♬  02:55, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Moved from Template talk:Expand section/sandbox

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

Can this sandbox be purged? I would like to try and figure out how to make the date show on its own line (instead of wrapping and being split). Thank you Technical 13 (talk) 15:39, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I was hoping to get the sandbox deleted so that I can use the easy "Mirror" button from the main template and start from scratch. Technical 13 (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

We don't delete pages without good reason (see WP:DELETE). You just need to open the "View source" tab of Template:Expand section, click in the edit box and copy all the text. Then open the edit window of Template:Expand section/sandbox and paste it in. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

coulden we make the template bigger then being small and to the left because if it is big it is eye catching and could we add more information to the template then this section needs expanding a bit more information please176.254.140.79 (talk) 17:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

If you need to display more information, you can add it to the article's talk page. I think that an optional parameter, to display the template aliened to the right (like: |right) would be useful in some articles, as aliened to the left is useful in others. --Götz (talk) 21:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I propose to set {{subst:DATE}} as default value. It will be much better solution that using bot filling this all the time. It won't be harmful change because |date= para can be filled only with date of inserting this template. Please comment. --Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 18:15, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I have recently seen this same proposal on another template. There are two ways of doing this, and there is no reason to prefer any of them. If anything, there is a reason to prefer the first option, which explain implicitly how to date templates from previous months and years. 15:57, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Debresser (talk)

We can do this by default only. If somebody fills this param with another date, the effect will be identical. I think there's no reason to use AnomieBot to filling this, if we can automate it without bypassing its functionality. --Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 20:47, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me you don't understand: Just copy the text from the documentation, that is: {{Expand section|date=June 2025}}, and that is all. What do you need a bot for? Debresser (talk)

@Debresser: No, it's difficult with constant copypaste from the documentation when editing or when you're using Visual Editor. Please see User:AnomieBOT, this bot fills automatically this template with the current date. I think bot isn't best way to do it. If everyone filled it, this bot task would not exist. I didn't mean using bot (which is present}, but just the opposite.--Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 16:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

You propose an edit of 14 characters. That is even more than date=May 2014 in the lucky case it is May. In any case, what if the template is dated to an earlier month than the current? Won't work, sorry. Debresser (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so, if you place there {{subst:DATE}} it'll fill this with date when you've saved the page. --Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 21:53, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Debresser? --Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 14:10, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Where do you want to use {{subst:DATE}}? I don't remember any other templates doing this. There must be a reason for it. Maybe I don't understand you well. Debresser (talk) 16:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Specifically, regarding the word "expansion" that's presently hyperlinked to source editing mode. Example:

This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it.

I was a bit surprised that the "expansion" link took me directly to source editing instead of some sort of tutorial (and/or guideline, explanation. etc.). It seems that it would be rather surprising for the 'average reader' to be dropped into an unfamiliar interface—with unfamiliar markup syntax—without the benefit of some sort of introduction.

I suppose elevating a 'curious reader' who clicks a link directly to 'naive editor' is one way to go about promoting editing, but personally, I suspect that inserting some sort of brief orientation step—with links to relevant resources—might help make for a more pleasant experience. For both the 'curious reader'/'aspiring editor' and for those who interact with a page after them.

There's probably already a page or section somewhere that would be appropriate (or easily tweaked to be so). Anybody have any suggestions?

--Kevjonesin (talk) 10:35, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Changes to be done: Diff. Petr Matas 00:40, 20 May 2014 (UTC). Update: Petr Matas 01:39, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support linking to Wikipedia:Tutorial. --Kevjonesin (talk) 01:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

• See also: WP:VPR#Modify the "Template:Expand section" link target. Petr Matas 03:53, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. In an attempt to keep this discussion in one place, once consensus has been achieved at WP:VPR#Modify the "Template:Expand section" link target., I'd be happy to process this request. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 11:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: I'm reopening the discussion back up here per my note on VPR. I have updated the /sandbox to include WP:Tutorial and will move that change live barring any objection in about 12-14 hours. Please do take some time to check it out on the /testcases page and let me know your thoughts on the change. Thank you. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 12:26, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• Hey, that looks good. Info and access. --Kevjonesin (talk) 20:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

• The only problem is that when you click on a tab of the tutorial, you will lose your changes. It would be nice if the pages linked from the tutorial opened in a new window. Petr Matas 08:50, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Why does the template say 'requires'? Is there a regulation it must satisfy? Praemonitus (talk) 22:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

"Requires" can mean simply "needs". It doesn't necessarily imply that something is mandatory. The dictionary is your friend. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 23:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The template width should be edited to make it a bit more wider so that the content (including the month and year) will be displayed in a single line. This would make the template less ugly in most cases. Rehman 07:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I am in favor of 2 lines, and would add a break before the date, and perhaps also make the template shorter. Debresser (talk) 18:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

If it takes up a row (not floating) then why limit the with, why not just make it "100%"? The space to the right will be blank and unused anyway so nothing is gained by using a set with. Also it is more clear (unambiguous) when it looks/acts as a "notice" for the entire section.84.55.110.220 (talk) 11:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It would definitely be helpful if the |1= parameter were also addressable as |with=, for mnemonic reasons. Anyone have a substantive objection? It's much easier to remember that the template takes a parameter with an English-language name that to remember what order the parameters are in and whether all of them are named or some are numbered, and so on, especially since the text this parameter creates leads in with the string "with:". It also reinforces that it does just that, and reminds the editor to phrase the parameter's value as something that would properly follow such wording. This is non-trivial if you don't use this template daily and memorize everything about it. Every single time I use it I have to come to the documentation for a reminder what the parameter is called and what its output is. It's getting kind of annoying. And I probably use this template much more often than the average editor (several times per month). It's also just plain weird that this template has named parameters for everything it does, with this one random exception. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 00:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC) A second reason to do this (and actually deprecate or simply never again mention the |1= usage) is that having people use |with= with automatically prevent any cases of incorrect display because of "=" or any other problematic characters appearing in the values editors apply to this parameter. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 14:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

No objection in almost a month, so I'm making this an editprotected request. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 14:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Template:Expand_section/sandbox has the code, and Template:Expand_section/testcases shows that it works properly (including a fix for a long-standing problem with line-initial wikimarkup formatting, as demonstrated in the testcases). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 17:03, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Also folded in the ambox type fix, above. If someone wants to object, just use the rev before that. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 18:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems ok, but I think the code could be simplified by using {{{1|{{{with|}}} }}}.  An optimist on the run! 12:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I have just made this simplification suggested above. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

•  Done --slakr^\ talk / 06:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Question: why isn't the parameter simply reason=? One would also expect that from the parameter's name in the documentation... --Fixuture (talk) 23:07, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

For consistency with {{Empty section}}, please change it to the following:

{{Ambox
| name  = Empty section
| subst = <includeonly>{{subst:substcheck}}</includeonly>
| type  = content
| small = {{{small|left}}}
| image = [[File:Wiki letter w cropped.svg|20px|alt=[icon]]]
| text  = '''This section requires expansion.''' <small>You can help by [{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section={{{section|}}}}} adding to it].</small>
| cat   = Articles to be expanded
| all   = All articles to be expanded
| date  = {{{date|}}}
}}

-- Anarchyte (work | talk) 03:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: Updating to that will significantly change the template. It will remove parameters and change the categorization. What exactly are you wanting to change? — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:03, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

@JJMC89: I copied the {{empty section}} template to make the example. Would this be better? (I can't get <pre> to work, check out the source code for the idea).

{{Ambox
| name  = Expand section
| subst = <includeonly>{{subst:substcheck}}</includeonly>
| type  = content
| small = {{{small|left}}}
| image = [[File:Wiki letter w cropped.svg|{{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|no|44px|20px}}|alt=[icon]]]
| issue = '''This section requires expansion''' {{#if:{{{with|{{{for|{{{1|}}}}}}}}}
 |  with: {{{with|{{{for|{{{1}}}}}}}}}
}}. <small>You can help by [{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section={{{section|}}}}} adding to it].</small>
| talk  = {{{talk|{{{discuss|{{{talksection|}}}}}}}}}
| all   = All articles to be expanded
| cat   = Articles to be expanded
| date  = {{{date|}}}
}}

Anarchyte (work | talk) 04:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

@Anarchyte: That seems reasonable to me. Adding |section= for the edit link. I have made the changes to the sandbox. I'll leave this open for now to allow others to comment. — JJMC89 (T·C) 04:25, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

A tweak to prevent the full stop after "expansion" from appearing on a newline. FYI, for me, the word "expansion" appears on a second line when not {{{with|{{{for|{{{1|}}}}}}}}}, probably because there's not enough horizontal space to fit the sentence on one line. Might be a valid case to keep it unbolded? The testcases look okay otherwise. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 07:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I've changed "requires" to "needs" and synced. The new bolding made the word "expansion" wrap to a second line (in my configuration), which really looked aesthetically unpleasing, and (as I argued above), reason to keep the text unbolded. I don't think this is uncontroversial, but ping if there are indeed any issues. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:50, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The "TemplateData" section lists a parameter, "talksection", defined as "A section heading in the talk page where the issue is discussed." But adding that parameter with a value (as "talksection=foo", without the quotation marks) doesn't change the display as far as I can tell. I expected it to create a link to the relevant section on the Talk page. Am I missing something? J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Good point. The meta template does not display the talk page link when the small format is used (because we are trying to keep the template small). However this template will default to the small size, so the talk page link will not display unless you actually specify |small=no. (See Template:Expand section/testcases.) Hmm, maybe better to remove this functionality altogether? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that secret information! I think a link to the relevant section of the Talk page is very useful—moreso than a link for editing the page, really—and wouldn't like to see that functionality removed. Better to make it work without the "small" parameter (which isn't even mentioned on the template page). J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 21:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I concur. Almost everyone already knows how to edit, and this template isn't the place to instruct them if they don't. But it is the place to point to where the relevant discussion is.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:02, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

please note tie to previous discussion and perhaps consult

@SMcCandlish & Jdcrutch... Also, MSGJ, IMHO keeping this template SMALL is a wrong strategy. INSTEAD BITCH if someone does not properly link a talksection! Just saying, all these box templates are ugly to me, but this one actually has a point.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In years past I would have investigated this myself before all the meta-templates created obfuscations...

Did parse the meaning from the week-long help page and summerize it as:

{{sect-stub | reason = (or Arg1) | small  = no | talksection= | date= }}

Aside: Is there some reason we're writing template usage in book length these days? (Given I was the person that invented the /doc page idea and CBDunkerson and I and Tim worked it out in theory, it all seems way overdone from my original simple {{doc page head}} template implementation! (Hmmmm, even the page has disappeared!) Didn't mind the {{documentation}} swerve et. al. but 47,323,834 characters of usage for a four parameter template? Ahem! Just saying! FrankB

The problem today: This template not working for talk section..., so passing the 'talksection' parameter is not functional.

• Possible the template is evaluating "| small = no " and not triggering the logic to display the link because of whitespace... or not.

1. See added Section Mordant#Mordants_in_history
2. and the diff.
3. Note in the below, also tried a non-explicit link, giving only the section name in the below.
   One problem with all these box templates is the layers. I no longer feel inclined to bother looking for what is specifically malfunctioning. Personally I figure they've wasted ten times the man-hours as what we had in 2008-09 with no actual benefits.
4. This is the template as I hung it:

 	
{{sect-stub|date=September 2016|talksection=[[Talk:{{PAGENAME}}#Mordants in history needed]]|reason=I know from reading on Industrial history, there were a number of such chemicals with interesting historical footnotes. Such tales belong here.}}

There you have it, complete with a test case. {{Edit Protected}} fix request ends // FrankB 21:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

See Special:Diff/739299276. The template calls {{Ambox}}. From what I observed (might be wrong) It seems ithat when the ambox is small, the |talksection= is simply discarded by design. I fixed the talksection param (removed the unnecessary linking).

If you are suggesting that |talk= or |talksection= should be visible even when the ambox is small, I currently believe that you are requesting a much wider change that needs discussion. FYI, |reason= doesn't appear to be supported in the Ambox or this template. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 22:14, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I found this request hard to parse, because it's rambling all over the place (and coming from me, widely considered a rambler, that's a lot of rambling). Boiled down, it appears to be a request for a change of {{ambox}} functionality, so it's placed on the wrong talk page. I don't see any reason that the small version of an ambox template shouldn't link to the discussion location if one is provided; that appears to be an oversight, not an intentional design imperative, since it impedes communication and resolution. The |reason= parameter is a conventional place to put notes, instead of using an HTML comment; it is directly parsed and acted upon by only a handful of templates for special purposes (and probably should not be; people do not habitually format what they put there any particular way, and this would not be likely to change, so using some other parameter would be a better idea).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:19, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

The template looks ridiculously bad on any monitor that's larger than 300px and needs to be changed ASAP!
It looks crammed, like frightened from taking too much space and really, really bad and archaic. And it looks even worse when there's a normal, widespan template like {{Unreferenced section}} before or after it.

The same applies to {{Empty section}}, {{Cleanup section}}, {{Very long section}}. I also created edit requests on the talk pages of these pages - and forwarded them here for a centralized general discussion.

They should all get standardized to one template-style - a reasonably good looking one.

→ They should be made to look like {{Unreferenced section}}, {{Refimprove section}}, {{Original research section}} and {{Summarize section}}.

Furthermore the new Category:Wikipedia section templates should be added to the template.

And lastly I just checked it on my mobile device and I can see the note neither on the mobile version of Wikipedia nor the mobile app. I'm not sure if this is an issue of the template or a technical issue? Because article hatnotes seemed to always show fine - for them it says "Page issues" (which can be shown/expanded by a click on it) - hence for sections it should say "Section issues". If this is a template-level issue I'll create a separate thread on that later so that this edit request can be resolved in its entirety right now.

--Fixuture (talk) 01:56, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. Also, {{edit template-protected}} is usually not required for edits to the documentation, categories, or interlanguage links of templates using a documentation subpage. Use the 'edit' link at the top of the green "Template documentation" box to edit the documentation subpage. — JJMC89 (T·C) 05:20, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Alright, didn't see that consensus was required before using the template - removed the request template now. Anyways, can we then please establish consensus on standardizing the template style here now? --Fixuture (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

There are two unrelated issues here. Making it non-small is merely a case of doing this. It's hidden in mobile because Module:Message box uses the metadata class, which is always hidden in mobile; this keeps coming up at WP:VPT. Don't ask me to explain modules, they're a total enigma. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Thanks for your input! Not sure if it would also be possible to somehow increase the height so that all the section templates have the same height with the only exceptions being those that have some extra text added to them by the person who added the template (e.g. by a reason= parameter) - but that's not as important.

...the metadata class, which is always hidden in mobile; this keeps coming up at WP:VPT

That the metadata class is hidden in mobile or the specific issue of these notes not showing up on mobile? Do you know if there's a phabricator ticket for this yet?

--Fixuture (talk) 19:16, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Probably. You could search the VPT archives, look for "metadata" and see if people mention mobile in the same thread. If they also mention things like "hidden" or "not displayed", even better. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

@JJMC89: Nobody replied here until now so can the change be made now? If there's nobody saying otherwise / stating objections it means that there's just one person involved who's for the change. If that changes at a later point anybody can of course make a talk page entry suggesting a revert/change again. I made a post about this on all of those templates talk pages so that really should be enough. --Fixuture (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Templates for discussion, I have now suggested that {{Empty section}} (along with the preceding header) and {{Expand section}} should be removed after a certain time limit, mainly because they don't seem to actually result in expanded sections in the long term. Please share your thoughts there:

• WP:Templates for discussion/Time limit for Template:Empty section and Template:Expand section

Mikael Häggström (talk) 12:52, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Template:Expand section has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add borders to the box. It looks like the template blends into the page. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 23:57, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

 Not done Hi Jd22292, this template is part of a series at Template:ambox, please discuss changes at Template talk:ambox, it must be handled carefully and compared on each skin as it it used on over 1 million articles. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

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There should be a bullet point when used in {{Multiple issues}}, and, for consistency, the “This section” text shouldn’t be bold. This is how it looks now. Interqwark ^{talk contribs} 16:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: You need to use |small=. — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:37, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I didn’t know that. Thanks!

You did partially complete my request since you fixed the bold text, so thanks! Interqwark ^{talk contribs} 04:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

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Parts of this template are below the 85% recommendation of MOS:SMALL. I have made changes in the sandbox (diff) to fix the ones involving the text – the date in the default small mode is still below this, but I think that can be overlooked for now, since that is the case in all small versions of amboxes, and should probably be changed over there. Test cases for my changes are here: Template:Expand section/testcases. The same change was just made at Template talk:Empty section. — Goszei (talk) 18:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC) — Goszei (talk) 18:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

User:MSGJ: While trying to get the variable width to work here, I actually discovered something that could lead to another useful change: The variable width also works with the large message box. It obviously doesn't look good with the box centred, but it made me think: would it be good to have a version of the template which is left-aligned, variable-width, but not small? What do you think? Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 12:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I've temporarily set margin-left: 0px; in the sandbox, and it actually looks pretty good! Check out the last testcase on the testcases page to see how it looks. DesertPipeline (talk) 12:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, where would the best place be to centralise all of this? As in the discussion about having a parameter for the small left-aligned variable width; having a parameter for the large left-aligned variable width; and anything else that I may have suggested but already forgotten. DesertPipeline (talk) 12:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: I suggest Template talk:Ambox — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion continues at Predefinição Discussão:Expandir seção on pt-wiki.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I want to remove the left margin in the Porutugese Wikipedia version of this template. In the source code, what makes the template touch the left border of the page? Thanks. --Bageense^(disc.) 19:12, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

User:Bageense: How do you want it? The same as it looks now, but in the middle of the page? Or larger like most other amboxes? If neither, please let me know exactly how you want it to look, and I'll try to write the required changes for you. In the below example, "style = margin: auto;" is what controls the horizontal alignment of the box.

In middle of page; same appearance otherwise

Code {{SAFESUBST:<noinclude />#invoke:Unsubst||date=__DATE__ |$B= <!--{{Expand section}} begin-->{{Ambox | name = Expand section | type = content | small = {{{small|left}}} | style = margin: null; | image = [[File:Wiki letter w cropped.svg|{{#ifeq:{{{small|}}}|no|44px|20px}}|alt=[icon]]] | issue = This section '''needs expansion'''{{#if:{{{with|{{{for|{{{1|}}}}}}}}} | with: {{{with|{{{for|{{{1}}}}}}}}}}}{{#ifeq:{{{punctuation|{{{period|}}}}}}|no||.}} You can help by [{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit&section={{{section|}}}}} adding to it].{{#if: {{{find|}}} | {{br}}{{find sources mainspace|{{{find|{{ARTICLENAME}} }}} | {{{find2|}}} }}|}} | talk = {{{talk|{{{discuss|{{{talksection|}}}}}}}}} | all = All articles to be expanded | cat = Articles to be expanded | date = {{{date|}}} }}<!--{{Expand section}} end--> }}<noinclude> {{Documentation}} <!-- Add categories and interwikis to the /doc subpage, not here! --> </noinclude> Appearance This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it.

Same appearance as other amboxes
(This only requires adding the template to a page and passing the parameter |small=no. However, because there is so little text, it looks strange.) Code {{Expand section|small=no}} Appearance This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it.

Also, if you want the box to be centred but small, I would recommend making the width of the box fit the text – doing so is an idea that I have had for all small left-aligned amboxes, and I am currently trying to get consensus for that change. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: Hello! What I want is neither of those options. I want to keep the small size, but remove the left margin altogether.

style = margin: auto is responsible for the margin? How do we make it null? I tried "0" and "null" instead of auto and it didn't work. --Bageense^(disc.) 04:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

margin:none and margin:null are not valid declarations. For the margin property, valid values are a length; a percentage; or certain keywords - auto or inherit. none and null are not among them. Some browsers may interpret margin:none as equivalent to margin:0 but it should not be relied upon. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:21, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Bageense: I'm not sure what you mean exactly; sorry. "Remov[ing] the left margin altogether", if I'm understanding correctly, isn't possible because with this type of code "margin" means "how far away from the edge a page element is". So with margin-left: 0; the element touches the left side of the page (usually – I'm simplifying here, because there are other pieces of code that might affect how this works). If you can explain what you mean by margin in this context, hopefully I'll be able to help. Sorry again for my confusion. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 15:23, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: So with margin-left: 0; the element touches the left side of the page. Yes! That's precisely what I want. See the template again: it is touching the left side. In the corresponding template I created in the Portuguese wikipedia (link), it has that default space every normal-sized template has. Perhaps a percentage would work, like Redrose64 said. --Bageense^(disc.) 17:01, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Bageense: I understand what you mean now. Add | small = {{{small|left}}} to the template in the same way this one has it – or whatever the Portuguese equivalent of that is. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 18:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Bageense: Is the problem resolved now? DesertPipeline (talk) 16:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: Oh, hi! Before starting this discussion, I think I already tried adding the small parameter in the pt.wiki template. I didn't work, but anyway, the cause of the problem is there, not here. To be honest, I don't remember why I decided to start the discussion here and not there. Because it seems clear that the problem is actually there... --Bageense^(disc.) 16:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Bageense: I see. I hope that you can get the problem resolved. One possible cause could be that they don't have the CSS code on that Wikipedia for small left-aligned message boxes; if it's not that, then I'm not sure what it could be. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 16:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: they do. I've been fiddling with this on pt-wiki in my common.css, to see if I could help, and independently noticed mbox-small-left as well. Defaults for these classes are:

• .mbox-small{clear:right;float:right;margin:4px 0 4px 1em;box-sizing:border-box;width:238px;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}
• .mbox-small-left{margin:4px 1em 4px 0;box-sizing:border-box;overflow:hidden;width:238px;border-collapse:collapse;font-size:88%;line-height:1.25em}

Tried tweaking it before I saw your comment (as well as trying some other approaches afterward) and then again just now after you mentioned it, but so far no joy. The rendered table containing the Expand section box has classes "plainlinks metadata ambox mbox-small-left ambox-content" (see prettified excerpt in my pt sandbox) and I've been fiddling with those in my pt-wiki common.css. I can style the text inside by modifying the table cell containing the text, by adjusting the td class mbox-text-span in my css, but that doesn't touch the container. Fiddling with the table classes hasn't worked so far, and I've gone as far as I can afford at this point. This ought to be resolvable in common.css—we just haven't hit the right class or selector combo yet. Maybe you can figure something out from here. The Expand template is here: pt:Predefinição:Expandir seção. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 19:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually, this entire discussion doesn't belong here, and should be moved to pt-wiki; @Bageense:, if you have no objection, I'll move it and leave a pointer to it. Mathglot (talk) 20:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I have no objection. Honestly, I don't remember what I was thinking when I started the discussion here. I must have had a reason. By the way, thanks for your effort in helping me, Desert. --Bageense^(disc.) 23:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline, one other thing: I did add the |small = {{{small|left}}} to the pt template. I seem to remember, though, that I had an issue with 'small' in some other template (here at en-wiki) before, and tracked down the surprising result that |small=no had precisely the same effect as |small=yes (or any other param value); in fact, it was only checking whether the param was present and had a value, but I think that happened somewhere up the line. Not sure if that's equally true in this case. You can see the module defaults around l. 41-43 of the module config, and it's tested in Module:Message_box at l. 168-172; the small box class is added at l. 187. Not quite sure how it all interacts with the |small= setting, but it's in there somewhere. Mathglot (talk) 22:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Discussion moved to pt:Predefinição Discussão:Expandir seção#Como eu removo a margem esquerda?

 – Mathglot (talk) 00:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think an expand article tag can be nice, but is there one already? CR-1-AB (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

For translated articles, there is; see {{Expand French}}, and all the related templates for other languages. Otherwise, we have the series of WP:Stub templates (there are hundreds of them) which indicate that an article is in a beginning state, and should be expanded. Mathglot (talk) 11:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Would it be best to re-word this to say (something along the lines of) "This section needs expansion; you can help by adding missing content." as per the prior reasoning given over similar wording on Template talk:Incomplete list ("you can help by adding to it" seems very similar to "you can help by expanding it", even if the latter is the one that has entered meme culture)? --QueenofBithynia (talk) 08:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

A reasonable complaint about the current wording, given the other discussion you link to. What about opting for brevity and simply dropping the last part? Then it would look like this: (Note: live example for section § Media at the article Ottoman Empire):

This section needs expansion. You can help. (June 2022)

Alternatively, using the word improve avoids the problem outlined at the linked discussion, i.e.: Please help improve it; or even just, Edit this section. Mathglot (talk) 18:37, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Thanks, I'd definitely support this change! (Sorry I didn't see your reply until now!) QueenofBithynia (talk) 21:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

@QueenofBithynia:, great; now we just need to get a few more responses to establish a consensus. You could call for feedback at a WikiProject like WikiProject Templates, or some other centralized venue. Mathglot (talk) 22:06, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you; I have placed a call for feedback at that Wikiproject as well as notifying editors who took part in the previous discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I think either the "improve" or "edit" ideas are a step forward. I like that "improve" subtly emphasizes helpful edits (can we say that enough?) and for users with edit-section links already active "improve" is less spammy and redundant. For people unfamiliar with WP however (and hence, without edit-section links) "edit" might be a clearer expression of what clicking the link would do. --N8_wilson 🔔 12:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

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Understand that the name might have been derived from the original rulers Kundaverma or simply Kundayya. All who descended the throne had to use Kundayya as their second name. Two kings who descended had names as Rudrapparasu Kundayya Hegde and the next two called as Laxmapparau Kundayya Hegde. In the history I have seen that one Laxmapparasu was killed in a battle. His widow settled down somewhere else possibly in a village called Kuthyar in Udupi district and bought nearby villages and ruled the place. The last king of Kuthyar who died in 1983 at the age 84 was known as Laxmapparasu Kundayya Hegde. Kuthyar Palace× is still there who was passed on to the last king’s sister’s eldest son as per matriarchal system. I know them personally because I lived in Kuthyar until I was five and learnt from my parents about the widow who settled in Kuthyar. Lynwood2023 (talk) 17:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. @Lynwood2023: You've posted on the wrong page. This is the talk page for Template:Expand section, which has nothing to do with a Kundaverma or Kundayya.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

It would have helped me if you had informed me where should go or you have just clicked to that page. For a first timer the whole thing is too confusing Lynwood2023 (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Kundapura Lynwood2023 (talk) 21:45, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Please go to the article that interests you, then click on "Talk" and "Add Section". Once you have added your suggestion you can come back here and delete this section - there appears no value in retaining this. Please read the core Wikipedia policy No Original Research which explains that all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source - in other words: personal knowledge is not enough, it must be backed up with documentary evidence. Also note the use of colons "::" to indent these comments cleanly.

- DarylKayes (talk) 06:59, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lynwood2023: Also, we have no article at Kundayya or Kundaverma, so there is no clear place to point you toward; we cannot read minds. I don't think anyone can guess what article's content you were saying something about. However, DarylKayes above is correct that 'I think I remember reading something somewhere once...' is not a basis for making any changes to any of our articles anyway, and neither is personal supposition that some names of various modern persons or places might be related in some way to an ancient subject.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:20, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. The article was Kundapur in Udupi District in Wikipedia. I did not know where to send my contribution to it. i

I apologise for wasting your valuable time and appreciate the prompt response from you. 2A02:C7C:5AB8:9100:54DB:4D01:3D64:3BF1 (talk) 08:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks 2A02:C7C:5AB8:9100:54DB:4D01:3D64:3BF1 (talk) 08:29, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I moved the salient parts of this to Talk:Kundapur, so will archive the thread here, as off-topic.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Template:Es and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 1#Template:Es until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 20:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)