Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022 Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Rollback_of_Vector_2022

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should Wikipedia return to Vector 2010 as the default skin? ~ HAL333 20:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This RfC was moved from Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) on January 21, 2023, with this edit. This page's discussions were moved to the /Discussion subpage on February 14, 2023, with this edit. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:18, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. Support as nom The WMF unilaterally forced the 2022 vector skin upon the community, despite a community wide discussion that found there was no consensus for such a change. The ONUS was on the WMF to convince the community and they failed. And the argument that we editors are but a small portion of Wikipedia users is dead on arrival: IP editors and readers are unable to use anything besides the 2022 skin. The WMF had decided that they have no choice, and no voice in this affair. The 2022 skin itself is inferior to its 2010 predecessor. It's indulgent, made by people with at most a modicum of editing experience, and poorly made, with excessive white space and spawning sandwiching and myriad other issues. Let's return to what worked. Let's return to what billions of readers of Wikipedia have been completely content with for over a decade. In brief, If it ain't broke, don't fix it. ~ HAL333 20:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   So Wikipedia should never change, for all time? 331dot (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I commend your straw man. ~ HAL333 20:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Can you answer the question? Because that is what you are saying. That no change should ever be implemented because it doesn't please everyone- which is impossible. 331dot (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   That is not what he is saying. There is a significant difference between not pleasing everyone and displeasing a large part of your community. Your argument is empty. I logged in for the first time in ages just to revert this unnecessary change that no significant majority wanted. IronRook (talk) 23:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Nothing on Wikipedia is determined by a majority vote, but by a consensus along with a weighing of arguments. I can't think of any potential change that wouldn't displease many people- that's a recipe for changing nothing. 331dot (talk) 00:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   An such consensus to apply vector 2022 as default did not exist in any way. The community does not clearly support this. Tvx1 01:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   The RfC to deploy had neither of those. No consensus, and as the closing editors noted, the weight of arguments went against the issue of fixed-width, ie. making editors and readers use limited width instead of allowing them to use full width if they prefer. If all the concerns outlined above are satisfactorily addressed[...], the editors wrote. The WMF has not done this. Instead they added a button readers would need to push on every single page, every single time the readers follow a link or come in from Google or navigate to our site. This is comically inadequate, and it's hard for me to understand why readers would actually do so, instead of being frustrated into giving up and unhappily accepting what they find an inferior viewing experience. As 24.251.3.86 said on mediawiki, it's "far too burdensome to be useful or practical, and as such, basically may as well not exist for all the good it does." --Kizor 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   readers would need to push on every single page, every single time the readers follow a link or come in from Google or navigate to our site This is false. The toggle stays, at least for me. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Not for me. Going from 2023 Antiguan general election to Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla to Felipe Pérez Roque to Communist Party of Cuba in an incognito window, I have to toggle full width each time. --Kizor 02:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   incognito is probably the issue, I assume this is implemented with cookies. I'm not sure whether or not this is a problem for the ethos goals though I'm more inclined towards "this is a problem". Aaron Liu (talk) 02:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC) The actual problem is that it doesn't save preferences for those who are logged-out. omg this is so simple why didn't i realize earlier Aaron Liu (talk) 02:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   It does not persist for me, and I have cookies enabled. I use Brave btw. Regardless, it is unsurprising to be behaving differently on different systems, something the developers would have to investigate. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 02:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @Jeremy Jeremus@Kizor I just realized the factor was whether or not you're signed in. This is obviously a massive problem that probably won't get fixed (save for defaulting to max width) by WMF because of the § Why are there no preferences for anonymous users? section in the faq. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Reader here (I do not log in, and can't, for various reasons), I'm not enjoying the new design. I had to click that "max width" button 10 times already today. I would prefer the absolute minimum amount of whitespace, I don't get what the point of the padding is, I want to use my whole monitor to read articles. 74.199.75.192 (talk) 04:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   That is factually wrong or at least, ideally. Transcleanupgal (talk) 19:00, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Both links are to essays, which may be considered as advice, but by no means are they policies or guidelines. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Change should require at minimum a majority, ideally a consensus. There is neither here. There is nothing but WMF's abuse of power by forcing this unwelcome change on the user-base, and absolutely refusing to address our grievances about it. Clear as day that WMF are a problem. 2600:1700:1471:2550:6002:A2:F43C:2665 (talk) 22:12, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   So you see the world so black and white. If people don't agree with you, then label them as change adverse. That is sad.

   I'm not saying that they should never change, but I fail to see how this is a step in the positive direction.

   The whole point of wikipedia is to easily convey information to anyone that enters the site. I fail to see how putting such a large white space around the data while making the date about 5/8 its original size on a PC is a positive direction. Now everytime I go to wikipedia, which is very often, I have an extra step. Now I need to zoom in on the page so that I can read it easily. Unfortunatly this has some undesireable side effects.

   If the whole point is to make it work better on phones, don't penalize PC users. Make your software smarter so that it detects which platform it is on and renders the page appropriatly. 134.243.253.241 (talk) 14:38, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @HAL333, despite a community wide discussion that found there was no consensus for such a change. The ONUS was on the WMF to convince the community and they failed. - from the closure of the community wide RfC: we see community support to roll out the change (though it should be noted that is preceded by [i]f all the concerns outlined above are satisfactorily addressed then).— Qwerfjkltalk 20:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @Qwerfjkl: That's a pretty important if there, isn't it? Makes it a conditional consensus, with the condition being (paraphrased) "concerns in relation to the width, non-intuitive icons and the language selector need to be resolved in a satisfactory manner prior to roll-out".

   Considering that the width, the non-intuitive icons/buttons and, to a lesser degree, the language selector behaviour are the three major returning themes of the many, many complaints across the various relevant noticeboards and talk pages, they clearly have not, in fact, been resolved in a satisfactory manner.

   Ergo the condition has not been fulfilled and therefore there is no community consensus for this specific roll-out of Vector 2022. AddWittyNameHere 21:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @AddWittyNameHere, the main issues noted in the closure were the width and the ToC. There were improvements to these (improvements that I don't have the time to find).
   This is hardly, in any case, a damning closure against V22, nor the WMF forcing it on editors. It may not be perfect, but it's hardly worth another huge RfC that is hardly going to be constructive. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:20, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @Qwerfjkl: You are right, I forgot to add the ToC as another major concern (which happens to also be another recurrent subject of complaints. Such a coincidence). Both the non-intuitive buttons and the language selector behaviour were also explicitly mentioned in the close though. And sure, I don't doubt there have been improvements. That does not make the issues satisfactorily resolved, at this point in time.

   I fully agree it's not a damning closure against V22 or eventual roll-out. It's a "most of the base concept works, but this, this and this needs to be fixed before it's ready to go live as default setting".

   Some complaints, especially from the daily en.wiki editors? Yeah, that's a given with any large change, and doesn't prove much of anything. But when large amounts of IPs and new accounts (read: Wikipedia's readers, rather than editors) go out of their way to find some page where they can register their dissatisfaction, and this dissatisfaction almost always is about the very issues that were highlighted as "fix these first, deploy after", that's a pretty clear clue that things were not, in spite of however many improvements may have been made, fixed in a satisfactory manner.

   Whether an RfC is, or is not, a good idea at this point is a second matter. I can see both good reasons for and against it, and which side wins out largely depends on whether or not the WMF can be expected to actually satisfactorily fix these issues now that the skin has been deployed; and on whether or not there is any chance of such fixes happening anytime soon. (Personally, I suspect "yes and soon" for issues that lean towards the 'it's a bug' side of things, but am not quite so sure when it comes to the rest of the issues, especially because communication from WMF employees so far does not seem to actually acknowledge that certain things are issues in the first place.) AddWittyNameHere 22:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @AddWittyNameHere, I'm not entirely sure V22 was perfect when rolled out (in fact: it wasn't), but now that it's here, I guess we're stuck with it. Let's just hope that the bugs are resolved and we have a fully-functioning skin (not that V22 isn't functional, and I've never encountered any bugs, but others have).
   Ironically, the main complaint I have is that V22 is too wide. I've somehow enabled something that widens V22, but I prefer it narrow, and I catch glimpses of it when pages initially load. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Also, regarding the large number of complaints, that is probably inevitable, no matter what we do. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Qwerfjkl, I think I can concur with a good portion of that at least from a practical perspective, and the parts I don't quite agree with probably aren't worth further arguing about here, so let's just agree to partially disagree?

   Re:your width issue, check your preferences, tab "Appearance". Is the box before "Enable limited width mode" checked? If not, check that to re-enable limited width. AddWittyNameHere 23:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @AddWittyNameHere, I agree. And no luck, I have limited width mode enabled. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I think it's the expand button. It doesn't seem to be around any more. — Qwerfjkltalk 13:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   WP:FAIT - just because it's been done does not inherently mean it cannot (or should not) be undone. WalnutBun (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   That closure does not accurately reflect community consensus. More people opposed than supported the proposal. There was no clear support at all, but rather strong division. A closure review is warrented here. Tvx1 01:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   It's hideous, it makes me register just to revert it. It doesn't read well and it lacks the navigation features. It's also bad enough to stop me donating to the foundation.

   2A02:A450:F52:1:E9B8:23B6:ADAA:FDD2 (talk) 19:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I agree. I also made an account just to get rid of it. Tarkalak (talk) 07:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2. At least temporarily go back Get feedback from outside of the ivory tower. Fix any clearly identified shortcomings. Then maybe try again. North8000 (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   North8000 Community input was solicited and not just from an ivory tower, and there was an RFC that led to the deployment. Disagree with its conclusions if you wish, but it was done. 331dot (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I was referring to on the specifics. E.G. whether or not to bury and hide very heavily used choices, separating out the question of having all of that blank space etc. North8000 (talk) 21:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @331dot It's not like I care since my skin is set to Vector 2010 still, but RfCs that close with 154 supports and 165 opposes should not be considered a success. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   LilianaUwU Nothing on Wikipedia is done by a majority vote, but by consensus and a weighing of arguments. 331dot (talk) 21:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   And weighing the arguments you still do not get a consensus in favor in any way. Tvx1 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and to disagree with how the arguments were weighed. But they were. 331dot (talk) 01:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   The arguments were weighed by "we're going to do this anyway regardless of the consensus." So I guess at least in that regard, you're correct. The arguments were weighed, they were just irrelevant. LeperColony (talk) 01:49, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   How about RfAs, there the majority counts. The vote counters failed in the close of the RfC on the launch of Vector 2022 (even though leaving enough room for an optional RfC before the launch) and the width issue isn't clearly visible either as there are numerous editors questioning about it. I haven't found it either, not that I care though. I actually like the Vector 2022 more and more but I can also use it if it is optionally enabled. Anyway, there is now a new RfC and we'll see the outcome. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:27, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   In AfDs majority also often counts. If there is no clear consensus, there is no consensus. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 14:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   It was done and then disregarded. The consensus was opposed to the changes. Nice try. LeperColony (talk) 01:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

3. Support with an asterisk - a solution that I believe would be of the most benefit would be a button on the sidebar to toggle Vector 2022 and Vector 2010, with the starting position being Vector 2022. I've found that Vector 2022 makes WP annoying to navigate on desktop in non-editing capacities, but I recognize that people do enjoy it. However, the freedom of choice for non-users is absolutely nonexistent, and should be rectified. Very weak support. I dislike the change, but with the point made by Terasail and the fact IPs are unable to choose skins, I can only give a weak support. This is a no-win situation, seemingly. Lucksash (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Non users have the same choices users have. According to the information about the skin, there are privacy issues that prevent allowing IPs to choose a skin. Not everything in life can be a choice. 331dot (talk) 22:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   My mistake - should have done some reading on the nitty gritty coding. Lucksash (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   What do you mean by privacy issues? I was on the Discord call today and was given to understand that the issue was related to caching - i.e., the site served to logged-out users has to be the same for everyone so that it can be cached. There's no mention of privacy on either the main Wikipedia page or the WikiMedia page.

   (I note that it should be possible to have a persistent setting for at least the amount of whitespace (which seems like the main objection) implemented purely client-side, without significant effects on performance or privacy.) Bakkot (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   there are privacy issues that prevent allowing IPs to choose a skin
   But surely this is fixed by allowing IPs to default to Vector 2010 by choice? By cookie? In essence, opting in to be de-anonymized only insofar as which skin you use. The only argument against this that I've heard is that it uses more server juice. And I find that argument extremely weak. How much server juice will be used by more clicks, more accounts, and more protests from anons who hate this and accounts who default to the old skin? — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @Shibbolethink, it's explained further below, but this require caching each page in both V22 and V10, which would be very expensive. It can't be stored as a cookie or similar to avoid a flash of unstyled content. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Now that I think about it, what's preventing the site from reading cookies first before serving pages?(Note that I"m only talking about max width mode here) Aaron Liu (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   To save even more cash, we could stop employing telephone sanitizers web designers.  Card Zero  (talk) 05:40, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

4. Strong support – The new style is aesthetically bad and has far too much white space (in what appears to be an attempt to mobile-ify the desktop view); there was no proper consensus for rolling it out; and the old version was not broken and did not need replacing. CuriousCabbage (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   So nothing should be changed on Wikipedia ever, for all time? 331dot (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I say this with as much respect as I can - but do you realize how ridiculous that response is? I'll let you look through Template:Fallacies to see where your comment falls. To help: Just because I may not like a particular new commercial for some product, doesn't mean they should stop making commercials or new products. But hey, to continue to follow your line of thought, maybe we should never have webpages; or computers; or electricity; or technology. All because some edit to some website that you like and someone else didn't was merely suggested to be reversed. - jc37 23:02, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I find it interesting that people won't answer the question but are criticizing me for asking it. It's not a fallacy because that's what you are implying with "if it aint broke". Something doesn’t have to be broken for it to be changed. I have seen far more comments that Wikipedia looks like it was designed in the 1990s than comments it should stay the same. I am undecided on the skin, but I'm trying it out. There is no change that will please everyone. 331dot (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Not what I was implying at all. But to respond to someone else saying that they didn't think the style needed wholesale replacement with "So nothing should be changed on Wikipedia ever, for all time?" is very much ridiculous to the extreme. I don't believe anyone is saying that. This change is really a package of changes, and in this case, the package would appear to have issues. If I'm served a gourmet meal, but the bread has mold on it, it doesn't mean that I never want another gourmet meal. - jc37 23:25, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   If you are saying changes should be made piecemeal, fair enough- but there is still the issue that no change will please everyone, and doing it piecemeal just draws out the process without making it better. Better to rip it off like a bandaid. The frustration I have here is those saying this was done without community input by dictators in an ivory tower- which is demonstratably false. Disagree with it all one wants, propose all the changes you want, propose ideas for better commuication, that's all great. But seeing the people who worked on this be attacked and insulted and cursed or told "they don't know as much as me with 30 years of experience" for doing their task is sad to see. I just want to see people be civil and have understanding. 331dot (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Changes shouldn’t be made just for the sake of it either. Your reasoning is utterly fallacious.Tvx1 01:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   They haven't changed it for the sake of changing it. There are reasons, if you'd care to read about them. Feel free to disagree, but this was not done without a reason. 331dot (talk) 01:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Every improvement implies a change. But not every change implies an improvement. Have in mind. 37.134.90.176 (talk) 08:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I've been following 331dot's comments, and they're so consistently fallacious that I can only assume that they're an actively malicious vandal. "There was an RfC" Yes, that nobody saw. If you're going to make a sitewide change, post a link to it on EVERY page for a month. 2601:645:0:41C0:D1A0:EB6A:A0C7:18BD (talk) 19:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   2601:645:0:41C0:D1A0:EB6A:A0C7:18BD, please assume good faith. — Qwerfjkltalk 20:36, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   You can't assume good faith when his reductio ad absurdum questions are posed in bad faith from the start. 73.119.237.50 (talk) 01:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   That's not what I said. But there is nothing wrong or incompatible or broken or outdated or aesthetically displeasing about the previous skin, and all this new skin changes is (i) to add more white space which makes pages harder to read; and (ii) to make the tools menu and thus more inaccessible and difficult to use. It may well be that in five, ten years time a restyle is needed to keep the pages looking fresh, or to incorporate some new technology or technical capability which becomes available. But Wikipedia at the moment still looks clean and is still easily usable. This specific re-skin only worsens things which were not broken. CuriousCabbage (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   any chance you can stop repeating the same nonsense non-arguments? 82.9.90.69 (talk) 01:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Correct. Nothing should be changed on Wikipedia ever. Safari on macOS (talk) 19:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   This is exactly my experience. It's so much wasted space on desktop, which is primarily how I use Wikipedia, and it is much more difficult to read. It seems to definitely privilege mobile devices at the expense of desktop devices. The new look does have an ancillary effect, which is I signed up for a Wikipedia account because that's the only way I could find to return to a more pleasing, easier-to-read version of Wikipedia. I will definitely spend less time on Wikipedia because it's just more difficult to read now. Shoutandecho (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

5. - Support I think this change was poorly made. I'm not against change, just not this one, it should still be worked on and a lot of things corrected. I'm French, I'm suffering this bad design for 2 (?) years now. Of all the thing I resent the WMF for is the total ignorance of negative comments, and a focus on the opinion of a carefully selected few editors. Up until V2022 landed in the French Wikipedia, I was a simple reader like any others, and I think the focus on editors is disheartening, us reader should have a voice in that too, in my point of view this has been decided behind closed doors. DerpFox (talk) 22:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   There is no content to read without editors. The process was an open process with years of comment and studies. 331dot (talk) 22:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   Yes? and? Does it make the editors more important than the readers? No, it doesn't. And now if you could please stop trying to silence any dissenting voice from official WMF official version of things, it would be nice, thank you. DerpFox (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   I am not silencing anyone and I take offense at the suggestion. I am responding to comments in a civil manner as part of a discussion. I won't be silenced either. 331dot (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   @DerpFox, did you notice that one can now get from the bottom of this discussion to the top of the discussion within a one click at the left sideboard by hitting the button (top)? That the sections of an article are now displayed in the sideboard to the left or in the bullets beside the article title without separating the lead from the body? For me those things weigh in much more. There are other features as well that seem good to excellent. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

6. Support for now. Major technical issues like mousewheel support and permanent IP settings should have been addressed prior to rollout, the "mystery meat" icons are untenable, and the language buttons are a tremendous step backwards. These issues need to be fixed behind the scenes, not live post-rollout, and this was clearly communicated to WMF in the previous RFC. VQuakr (talk) 23:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
7. Support until the issues are worked out, especially the squished content. This was very predictable and very preventable. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
8. Strong support. To say that the new skin is horrible is a very polite understatement, you know. Why on Earth they've even started designing this? — Mike Novikoff 00:00, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   If you haven't already, please see WP:VECTOR2022 for more information. 331dot (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   It's not really interesting. The question was just rhetoric. I'm sure there's a lot of links and even shortcuts to justify the horror, but it's still one. A horror. That I've turned off ASAP. Thanks that we have a link to do so, at least. — Mike Novikoff 04:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   You know, I've just been robbed of Twinkle (for I can't support ES6), so I'm already laying back and thinking of England. Now you want me to try a DP? BTW, it seems to be too much of 331dot around, please stop bludgeoning. — Mike Novikoff 05:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

9. Support so long as it remains impossible for logged out users to revert persistently, which if I gather correctly seems to be the case for technical reasons. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 00:21, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

   In the interest of consensus, I will pose my argument more clearly. I hope this cuts through the naysaying and unconvincing opinion-flinging and gets us closer to an end to this discussion: 1) The opinion of all readers is important, not just active people with accounts, and certainly not just the devs or their donors. Not everyone who uses Wikipedia can read logged in, and active people can change their settings anyway. This doesn't necessarily mean a global poll is the best way to find out what's best, but I wouldn't be opposed to one, so long as the interpretation of the results and methodology is pre-agreed. 2) Consensus was not reached and the people who called it made a big mistake thinking there wouldn't be greater backlash. Because of this, there is no legitimate reason to say Vector 2022 being default is justified as fait accompli. The only reason it would remain this way with no attempt to reach consensus properly is because powerful people can get away with it. 3) As far as I can tell this would not be a very technically difficult thing to reverse, and the devs apparently testing on users with no way to opt out other than just not use the website is very annoying. I see no reason why this could not be done at least until consensus is reached for real, except that the people with the keys are irrationally attached to Vector 2022 or they have business interests keeping them from doing so, neither of which are in the service of this website's purpose. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 18:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

10. Strong support – Vector 2022 is an eyesore and much more difficult to navigate than Vector legacy. The skin also breaks many pages whose layout was not optimized for Vector 2022. The Web team failed to clearly communicate the change to all active users ahead of time, resulting in the flood of complaints at WT:VECTOR2022 in the past two days. The fact that many editors were unaware of this change until the launch, and/or did not participate in the previous RfC, raises questions as to whether there was consensus to deploy Vector 2022 as the Web team suggests. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
11. Strong support Shinanoki (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
12. Strong support: I am not as active an editor as I was for a while, but I'm still known as 'the guy who edits Wikipedia' in a lot of places I hang out. The past day has been seeing just a massive tidal wave of opposition from a broad spectrum of readers acrosss...everyone I know, frankly. Absolute eruptions into "this is awful" well beyond what you get from most website layout changes. Readers who prefer desktop dislike the aesthetic of the mobile site (there's a reason you get those bots designed to remove m. from mobile links, given it's apparently beyond our capacities to do it on purpose), and they loathe a new skin that intends to copy the aesthetic of the mobile site. Opt-out stats poorly measure reader opinions on skins, because readers don't have accounts and can't be reasonably expected to make them for every context they read Wikipedia. I have not anywhere across thousands of readers from various walks of life heard a single positive word about the new skin, not even as pushback. I also retain all the many complaints I've personally had about this skin for the past two years; the language icons are terrible, the lack of genuine options in the sidebar are terrible, the image formatting is shot, the amount of whitespace is distracting, the community does not actually support the change, etc. (Every not-community-based one of these I've seen repeated vocally and angrily over the past day.)
    If Wikipedia was a more typical website, it would be fairly trivial to solve the skin issue; we could simply add a dropdown menu for all readers to select their preferred skin. The problem is that Wikipedia cannot under its current ideological/philosophical framework do this, as the compromise would require cookie tracking to allow it to persist between sessions. This results in people who complain to info@ getting told to 'just make an account', which is not a scalable solution (and ignores the fact readers tend to be reading Wikipedia on things other than their home computers, where they still want to see their preferred layout). My ha-ha-only-serious solution is "automatically generate an account for each IP address". If this seems untenable to you, fair enough -- these changes being controversial and hard to individually reverse is precisely why it's bad to force them on literally billions of people! Vaticidalprophet 01:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    You have surveyed thousands of readers? I'd be interested in seeing the results of that. 331dot (talk) 01:24, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not how it should work. That should happen before not demanded after pushing it out... - jc37 01:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The Foundation did do surveys and testing. 331dot (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    See mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Repository/Sentiment Survey Aaron Liu (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It is interesting to see how polarized the Overall Satisfaction responses were, yet the Introduction section was written back in September anticipating Vector 2022 becoming default inevitably and irreversibly. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Their survey only polled 152 people, and of those only 24% told them "the new skin is easier to use than the old one". Not only is that nowhere near a representative sample, but they went ahead with this with just a 24% positive response? WalnutBun (talk) 01:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    What makes you think this discussion will be more representative? It's usually people that are dissatisfied with something that speak the loudest about it, more than people who don't have an issue. 331dot (talk) 01:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    You keep saying things like this, but when the complaint is "The process used to generate this action was bad," a response of "The next process may also be bad" is quite unconvincing. The right way to do this is with broad surveys of all types of users, not 152 people (apparently mostly editors?). 72.49.221.183 (talk) 04:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I would argue that this RfC should be announced on the Main Page, and on Wikipedia:News, to solicit opinions from as wide an array of users as possible. As it concerns a radical redesign of the entire site, I am of the belief that the original RfC should have been advertised the same way. Everyone should have had the opportunity to weigh in - and I would argue that relying on people to seek it out on a page they may not know even exists is not conducive to generating a true community consensus, especially on matters that truly affect every user of the site. WalnutBun (talk) 20:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I wouldn't even say the Main Page would be helpful; I visit Wikipedia pretty much every day and never look at the Main Page. Put it on one of those banner notices - I regularly see complaints about requests for donations, so people must be paying attention to those HerrWaus (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    This percentage is very large compared to the amount of people who voted that the original skin was easier. The plurality here voted neutral which is why this percentage is so small Aaron Liu (talk) 04:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    In cases such as this, when considering a radical redesign of an entire website used by hundreds of thousands each day, a neutral response to a survey should be taken as preference for the current design - not as a go-ahead to change things. At minimum, a plurality should have been required. WalnutBun (talk) 20:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    One thing that immediately sticks out to me here is that responses with "foul language" were removed. Strong negative responses often use foul language; I am curious how many of the dropped comments were actually irrelevant and how many were "this design is fucking terrible".

    OVasileva (WMF), is the raw data from this available? ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:28, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Good catch, I missed that. Something else to point out is that they clumped the neutral and positive responses together. There's no valid reason for doing that other than manipulation of the reader's perception - it makes it seem as if more people agreed with the change than truly did. A truly neutral article would have more clearly separated the three categories of responses.

    Furthermore, rereading the article shows that they also removed "responses which did not answer all of the questions within the survey". How much feedback was discarded simply for not having filled out the entire form? WalnutBun (talk) 20:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    This A/B survey is an example of a biased conclusion and a misleading intrepretation of the results for their goal.

    After initially discarding most (398/550 = 72%) of the responses the breakdown of the remaining (valid) results was as follows:

    • 60 responses reported the old experience as easier to use.
    • 49 responses reported that they find both skins equally easy to use.
    • 37 responses reported the new experience as easier to use.

    Note that adding these three responses gives a greater number of total responses (146) than the amount actually reported (142), which does not give me confidence in the overall accuracy of the report.

    Despite the valid responses preferring the old experience by a ratio of 1.6 to 1 (60:37), the interpretation provided was that "The majority of respondents reported that the new experience is easier to use or that the new and old experience are equally easy to use". While this is true, as 86/142 is indeed a majority, it could have equally been stated that "The majority of respondents reported that the old experience is easier to use or that the new and old experience are equally easy to use". These figures would then be 109/142, a much more convincing figure.

    Given the wording of the interpretation chosen in the report, the authors appear to have misled the reader with their conclusion that the new (V22) experience was preferred over the legacy skin. Loopy30 (talk) 05:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    As a reader who has been using this site for over a decade, what survey? I have never once seen any mention of a survey. It's all well and good claiming that there was a public survey but it may as well have been inside a filing cabinet behind a locked door with a sign reading "beware of leopard". As mentioned above, the survey polled 152 people which by wikipedia's own page is 0.00014% of registered users and who knows how many unregistered ones. I had to create an account just to revert this pointless change. DutriusTwo (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @DutriusTwo, nice Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference. — Qwerfjkltalk 19:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't understand what you're saying over here. Before what? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

13. Strong support there was not actually consensus for rolling this out in the first place and the new skin is clearly worse than the old one. Since developers are unwilling to allow logged-out users to choose between the two skins, we should go back to the skin that people prefer and are used to. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It's not a matter of willingness, there are privacy issues with doing so; that information would have to be stored somewhere. 331dot (talk) 01:18, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    There is absolutely no privacy issue with using a client-side cookie for a setting like that. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    See Wikipedia talk:Vector 2022#Do not force the creation of a user account which is where I read that claim. 331dot (talk) 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    If you check the thread you link to, you will find that the WMF representative admits that they don't have the technical background to know whether this is the case and are simply repeating information they've read elsewhere. They even admitted that before you posted this. To be clear, there doesn't need to be a trade-off between user privacy and having this feature. 89.102.98.143 (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    See Privacy and Electronic Communications Directive 2002#Cookies. Currently Wikipedia is maybe the only major website left that doesn't have to display a giant "do you consent to cookies?" pop-up to visitors from the EU. This would change that. – Joe (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Your claim is untrue. There is no requirement to show banners for theme-setting cookies. Most of the banners you see are on sites unwilling to stop tracking their users. Moreover, there are 6 cookies currently served to logged-out visitors, including one that appears to contain a geolocation and a bunch of others with timestamps. Clearly a cookie for tracking a skin or dark theme preference is no more privacy eroding that those already in use. 89.102.98.143 (talk) 19:26, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    No, it has nothing to do with privacy. See mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Frequently asked questions §§ Why is the opt-out link not available for logged-out users?​ and Why are there no preferences for anonymous users?. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I concur, this new skin primarily affects logged-out frequent readers and the least disruptive option should be default for those not logged in. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

14. Support at least temporarily, based primarily on the "public's" reaction. I do personally prefer 2010 but personal preference isn't the point. The existence of a well advertised RFC in the past does not preclude responding to negative feedback now. With that said, I hope to see the WMF/whoever to respond quickly with either changes to the skin based on feedback or a reversion while they tweak it. SpinningCeres 01:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
15. Support. My biggest issue with this rollout is how it wasn't publicized at all - or, at the very least, not well. I use Wikipedia almost daily (both while logged-in and logged-out) and I can honestly say that I saw no sign of this change even being considered before it suddenly rolled out, and I'm not alone: Wikipedia_talk:Vector_2022 is full of people (and at least one wiki administrator) that were also blindsided by this change. WalnutBun (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
16. Support in the strongest possible way. This action is one of the worst I have seen by the WMF. A RFC was held to gauge support and was ignored completetely. The changed was forced through unilaterally and if the WMF has any remote respect for their community they roll that back asap.Tvx1 01:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The RfC WASN'T ignored completely, in fact the problem was the community closers misguidedly decided that if the changes proposed by the opposing side were made then the rollout can be done without any new rfc. The foundation simply acted on this misguided closing that they trusted because it wasn't from the foundation. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Then a closure review is warranted.Tvx1 02:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm newer to Wikipedia than you, is there some specialized closure review? Otherwise doesn't this rfc suffice as a closure review? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    RfC closure reviews are usually conducted at WP:AN, but this RfC will do. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    There's nothing wrong with WMF in this case, the RFC was closed too fast, which make this misunderstanding. Lemonaka (talk) 02:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Sure the WMF are in the wrong. The closure clearly stated a follow-up RFC was warranted, WMF just ignored that and unilaterally forced the change. Tvx1 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    That was exactly what the closure said against, to quote and in our view no further RfC would be required Aaron Liu (talk) 02:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    BTW, even there is a consensus to change back, I believe WMF will not take that. If they really said

    in our view no further RfC would be required

    , then everything is useless.@Aaron Liu Lemonaka (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Lemonaka Again that was not from WMF, that was from two esteemed editors unrelated to WMF that closed the thing. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    rollback to old version I know that nothing wrong from WMF, but previous RFC is clearly no consensus.
    BTW, I believe if this case is getting hotter and hotter, Arbcom should be noticed. Lemonaka (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

17. Support. As a casual user who's used wikipedia for over a decade myself, I've found the new UI to be aggressively frustrating. I feel like I've been forced to create an account for a website I never had to before to use regularly just to be able to revert the changes. If somehow this rollout could be performed without necessitating account creation to roll-back then It could've gone over a lot smoother with the entire community. As it stands, with no ability to revert without logging in, I find these changes as hostile towards casual users, which appears to be contrary to the entire point of the rollout of changes in the first place...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9681:ffa0:7002:7aac:8a4b:b978 (talk) 01:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
18. Support until there's an easy way to revert to the old interface without having to create an account. For example, Reddit still maintains old.reddit.com (the old interface which is imo better) alongside the (re-designed) reddit.com -FASTILY 02:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The easiest way is to use a redirector extension such as fastforward and redirect every /wiki link to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Page_title_with_underscores&useskin=vector and redirect every /w link to a link with the &useskin=vector suffix. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    How disconnected and out of touch do you have to be to think that that's the "easiest" way? You're just another one (Personal attack removed) up in his ivory tower who thinks he knows best and that all the people who dislike the change are just backwards idiots who "don't like change." 198.21.192.40 (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

19. Strongest possible support - mystery meat navigation, breaking things that don't need to be broken, taking control of text width away from the user, pointless whitespace, reduced information density motivated by dubious statistics in a typical runaway example of Goodhart's Law in which measures gradually gain perceived importance until the design is being made in service of the metrics instead of the metrics in service of the design... this redesign has no good features and many bad features. As an autodidact, independent research and amateur historian who views dozens of pages on here per day, and thus something of a power user despite the fact I don't edit the encyclopedia, if I didn't have the technical savvy to create an account to avoid this awful redesign I would have already started looking elsewhere for information as much as possible. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
20. Support until non-logged-in editors can opt out. Any website that I have to create an account just to read is dead to me. Accounts are for interaction. I don't want to remember another fricking password. Now I happen to have an account here. I happen to interact here. This isn't about me, or most people who can find this page. It's about the person who just wants to read about French history or the Higgs boson, and just got this foisted on them, and is going give up on us forever as just another crappy unusable website. Give. Readers. A. Choice. This isn't impossible. If it's non-trivial then revert the change temporarily. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Most people will be viewing on a phone and so won't see the new skin anyway. If readers cared so strongly about the skin as you suggest, they'd make an account to change it. Garuda3 (talk) 19:49, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Most people don't get much further than Google when it comes to reading wikipedia. its all about perspective. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

21. Support Core issues I have with the change are the massive whitespace which serves no purpose and is an overly harsh color for high contrast monitors, the lack of persistence of core settings unlike other wikis with the limited width feature, the poor visibility of the expand button due to it's thin design and it's placement within the otherwise unutilized whitespace where it blends in, and the expanded view having less body visible than the 2010 version. Since there are warnings on the top, I had to find the original discussion on vector 22 on reddit of all places from there I found the solution was to make an account(had one, never really used), or to use third party scripts.Deadoon (talk) 03:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hey @Deadoon, just sharing an update that we're almost done with the work that makes the full-width toggle persistent for logged-out folks (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T321498). Regarding the whitespace, a certain amount of whitespace surrounding text has been proven to help readability, but beyond that the additional whitespace isn't really meant to serve a purpose in and of itself. Rather it's the side-effect of following the WCAG criterion and best research on line-length. I recognize it's bothersome to a lot of people; I think because they feel that the space is wasted, or they simply don't like how differently the page now looks. However, I think it's a bad idea to fill the space just because people don't like how it looks. I think we need to remain focused on utility, and perhaps try to be more constructive about coming up with ideas for stuff to put there that would increase utility. Curious if that makes sense? Cheers, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 02:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @AHollender (WMF) Rather than fill it to appease, why not fill it to provide functionality or as part of formatting? Like moving infoboxes, images and captions over to the sides, and make expanded captions possible. Rather than simply restrict the reading area, expand the capabilities.

    One major issue I have with the whitespace is that it is simply unbroken and excessively bright, dark empty areas or areas with things that break up that brightness is far more appealing and less harsh on the eyes when used on higher brightness and contrast displays. This compounded with the placement of the expand button being in the least visible part of the white space makes it blend in and can be quite hard to see. I actually had to look up details on this change because the ones that were directed to me by the normal articles were useless. That is how I ended up on here(through about 4 redirects and disjointed discussions) from the reddit. Deadoon (talk) 12:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Deadoon thanks for your response. In short: yes, I agree we should be looking into those kinds of changes/options, and Vector 2022 opens up the possibility to do so. We've now implemented CSS grid, and have way more flexibility to think about the layout of the page, and how we format content. We strongly believe that by limiting the line-length we've already significantly improved the reading experience for most readers (i.e. Vector 2022 is a big step in the right direction already). Will we continue to iterate, to make the experience even better? Yes, 100%. How long should we have waited before introducing Vector 2022 to English Wikipedia? This is a very difficult, and contentious topic. But my main point to communicate there is: we didn't make this decision carelessly. If you look through the project documentation, our deep collaborations with various communities, etc. I think you will find that to be true : ) AHollender (WMF) (talk) 13:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Its actually made it much worse for me. ScrewV22 (talk) 12:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

22. Support Viewing Wikipedia while logged out is painful because while an article used to take up 80% of my screen now it takes up about 50% or so. What a waste of screen real estate. RPI2026F1 (talk) 03:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
23. Conditional Support I am unable to find any of the cited papers that support the claims about whitespace being good in the FAQ for the redesign (Lin 2004 or the Wichita State lab study whose DOI number goes no where). I made an account after almost 18 years of daily use because I was displeased with the whitespace. I would be moved to change my opinion if someone could actually show the empirical studies that support having whitespace for the sake of reading comprehension without sacrificing reading speed. I can get that this is a design principle that many sites have occupied, but I do not see why Wikipedia must join in on such a trend. What is sleek today is aged tomorrow. Vector 2010 seems to me to be a timeless design. Guidethebored (talk) 03:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I believe when I saw the WMF folks cite the sources they were saying the sources said that it slowed down reading speed in exchange for reading comprehension. I recall the WMF folks said they saw this as an acceptable tradeoff. Cost-free tradeoffs are very rare. I strongly disagree with them on this one. IWantTheOldInterfaceBack (talk) 04:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Below, someone linked me to the two articles: Wichita State and a different article about line length.

    I feel inclined now to change my Condition to Fully Support. The Wichita State study does not apply to Wikipedia; it compares no margins or margins. Wikipedia already had a margin which of course assisted in readability. The other article suggests no correlation between line length and adult reading comprehension. Its Full, Medium, and Narrow paragraphs were variably rated by the metrics of perceived ease of scrolling, concentration, and presentation, with no clear winner at all there. I personally would need to see more to be convinced. Guidethebored (talk) 15:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I found Lin 2004 here. I'm not sure if it's accessible to everyone, but the tested text was in Chinese (Taiwan) and done on 24 participants aged 62-80 recruited from those taking an introductory computer class from a social welfare institute. Eniteris (talk) 12:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Guidethebored, @Eniteris - thank you for your questions around the research. We have collected a number of research studies that we referred to as well as other general information on limited width such as the WCAG accessibility guidelines on width on the feature page of the project. There, you can also learn a little bit more about our rationale behind making the change. Hope this is helpful! OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

24. Strong support. A total step backwards in terms of readability. A majority in the last RfC were opposed to it and only 24 percent of those polled thought the new skin was easier to use. Tkbrett (✉) 04:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
25. Support – I just can't get around the fact that the October/November RfC ended with 154 support and 165 oppose and they went forward anyway. I realize 'not a vote', but I read those comments and I don't see how the closers came to those conclusions. And when I read that closure Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)#Discussion I thought it at least meant some things would be fixed before roll out. Well, none of the issues I mentioned in that RfC were fixed. DB1729^talk 05:05, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hey @DB1729 thanks for being involved in both the previous RfC and this one. I'm sorry that the personal tools menu is causing you frustration. Out of curiosity, which tool in that menu do you use most often, and how many times per visit/session would you say you use it?

    Regarding the previous RfC: I think the closers of the last RfC identified that the main cause for opposition was the limited line-length (which you mentioned was your "big no-go"). In response to that we built a toggle/setting so that people can switch to a full-width layout if they prefer. In another few days this toggle will be persistent for logged-out people as well (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T321498). We hope that satisfies the community members' concerns there. After the RfC we spoke to the folks at Fandom who faced a similar opposition during their recent redesign, which resulted in them building a toggle. They shared data with us, showing that 0.1% of people use the toggle to make the content full-width (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T319449#8379920). We also reached out to Mary Dyson, the leading researcher on readability for on-screen text, who assured us that limited line-length leads to a better reading experience all around. Given that information, combined with the WCAG criterion, and ample research, we feel quite confident that the default experience should be limited-width. AHollender (WMF) (talk) 02:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @AHollender (WMF): I'm sorry that the personal tools menu is causing you frustration. Out of curiosity, which tool in that menu do you use most often, and how many times per visit/session would you say you use it? I've never bothered to track how many times I click on each link, but I assume you mean from the drop-down menu. That would easily be my 'Contributions' link. I actually have a shortcut in my browser, I use it so often. Beyond me why anyone would want it to be hidden in a dropdown. I mentioned the watchlist in that previous RfC. Why use a symbol instead just calling it a 'Watchlist'? BTW, "Frustration"? I currently choose not to use V22, so it's not causing me any frustration. How are you doing? I suppose I am "frustrated" and opposed in general to the notion that replacing perfectly descriptive text with vague and ambiguous symbols is somehow an improvement. Are the symbols designed for illiterates or mind readers? I think the closers of the last RfC identified that the main cause for opposition was the limited line-length (which you mentioned was your "big no-go"). Like I said in the previous RfC, right after "no-go", the problem is the reduced width breaking the layout of tables and images, evident on countless articles including in the article the WMF chose to present to us as an example for that RfC. How tables are positioned on the page in relation each other has nothing to do with "reading experience". Implementing a skin that misplaces countless images and tables is sloppy and careless. When I raised this concern on another thread, the response was this,[1] implying the idea is for us (regular editors) to fix the problems the new skin has created. (I have no interest in doing that, fwiw) DB1729^talk 15:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @DB1729, I think these tables may have already appeared broken on the mobile version of the website. — Qwerfjkltalk 16:45, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes that's what was said. So then it's ok to break them on the desktop too? DB1729^talk 16:47, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @DB1729, no, they should be fixed on both. Just because editors can't see a broken table doesn't mean it should be ignored. — Qwerfjkltalk 16:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Well then I guess they had better get rid entirely of the wide-text skins I continue to use if they want me to care about such things. DB1729^talk 17:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

26. Support on desktop, the whole thing now looks like a cheap mobile site. Very difficult to navigate and unrewarding UX. Juno (talk) 05:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
27. Strong support. Frequently used tools (even by the casual, no account user) are now hidden in dropdowns and menus. This not only wastes time by requiring that the user open the menu and then scroll to his selection, but makes it less likely that such features will be discovered at all. It would be one thing if the saved space were used efficiently, but instead we get trendy white space. At the very least, input should be sought from casual and non account users with page banners seeking feedback. Kilometers to Verona (talk) 05:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
28. Support Employing this mobile version for everyone is just a scam for desktop readers to create accounts. Алхимик Темногорск (talk) 05:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi @Алхимик Темногорск. Thank you for your feedback. Just to clarify, the Vector 2022 skin is not used on the mobile website. The mobile website uses the Minerva skin, which you can also explore in your preferences. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 17:46, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi @User:OVasileva. Vector 2022 skin is not used on the mobile websit, BUT Vector 2022 is a mobile skin itself, and it is used for a destop users, that is wrong, and that is what we are talkin about. 83.30.229.13 (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    83.30.229.13, it's not a mobile skin. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

29. Strong support. Thank you for opening this RFC, which has saved me the trouble either of finding a query I posed a couple of years ago after this change was imposed on some non-English WPs or of raising a new one. I have immediately reverted to Vector2010. I detest Vector2022 for two main reasons. (1) It makes switching between languages difficult and tedious. I cannot emphasise this strongly enough. I want the list displayed alphabetically on the page, not in some sort of thematic drop-down menu; so that I can immediately see whether or not there is an equivalent. This isn't an issue of simply switching between favoured languages, but of multilingual searching, which I do more than most or possibly anyone; see my UserPage. (2) I want a properly usable ToC on long pages such as WP:ANI, not a difficult-to-navigate floating list.
    I only noticed the change because I bought a new PC three days ago, and my preference was not carried over onto it. Thank you again; you have saved me a lot of frustration.
    I am by no means against change, but am strongly in favour of easy-to-find options; and this isn't one. Narky Blert (talk) 06:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hey @Narky Blert, thanks for sharing your opinions on Vector 2022. Two quick notes:

    • We're exploring various options with the language switcher, one of which is making the language menu pin-able. You can see a prototype of that here: https://commons.wikimedia.orghttps://demo.azizisearch.com/lite/wikipedia/page/File:Prototype_of_pinning_the_language_menu_to_the_sidebar.gif. Another option might be a setting to allow for alphabetical sorting. The research we did was quite clear regarding newcomers being able to find the language switcher much more easily with it in the new location. We're confident we can find a solution that serves everyone adequately!
    • We've gotten similar feedback about the TOC on specific admin pages, one of which is WP:ANI. We will be working on this task soon, which should improve the situation: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T317818

    Curious to hear any thoughts you might have on the above. Cheers, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

30. Strong support The primary audience of Wikipedia is unregistered or logged-out users, who are the ones unable to change the appearance of the website. I logged in today for the sole purpose of reverting this visual change, and there is likely a spike in logged-in users since this change was implemented. Reddit has their "old.reddit.com" domain that allows logged-out users to use the older appearance, and I see no reason why Wikipedia cannot use a similar method aside from complete dissociation of the website from its community. The ability for the majority of users of Wikipedia to be able to revert the appearance should have been a bare minimum for the implementation of Vector 2022 as the default. This should not be the default appearance until Wikipedia can give unregistered site viewers a simple method of reverting the visual changes that does not constitute logging in or creating an account. GalacticRuler456 (talk) 06:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
31. Strong support There was never a consensus for Vector 2022 anyway. Vector 2022 looks god awful for readers and has worse usability for editors (frequently used links now hidden in dropdown menus). And WMF will tell us that sudden spike in new registrations (because really a lot of people hate the redesign and there is no different option to change it back) would be a success of the new skin, lol. --Icodense (talk) 06:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
32. Support At lease please put the expanded, inline, contents section back. For example: https://imgur.com/a/TULEHvp. --LDF092 (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
33. Support I'm a random user who was sufficiently annoyed at a previous poorly implemented feature change to make an account to complain, and here I am again to yet another ill considered design choice. The design is a mistake. Clearly it is the mobile version of the site erroneously being shown to web users. Why else have tiny text in a narrow strip and vast areas of empty space on either side? Either create a proper web version of the site or revert it back. Ikaruseijin (talk) 07:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi @Ikaruseijin - just to clarify, the Vector 2022 skin is not used on the mobile website. The mobile website uses the Minerva skin as the default. If you're interested in learning more about the decision to limit the width of the text on desktop, the team has published their research and documentation on this project page. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 18:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @OVasileva (WMF) Except that it was clearly designed for mobile purposes given the text takes up 1/3 of the page, with wide areas of white space on either side... Why else all the dead space and constrained text except to fit on an iPad/tablet or smartphone? The only alternative explanation is that it was poorly designed, not properly tested and vetted, and should not have been used. Ikaruseijin (talk) 02:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Ikaruseijin Please read mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Frequently asked questions § Why is the width of the content limited? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes I have read it already. Utter nonsense. I find the older layout with its wide text to be much easier to use and read than this narrow view. The narrow view is cramped and I find it a chore to get through. I have to switch lines again and again in rapid succession and I lose my place vertically in the paragraph and have to re-read to find it again. It actively disrupts my reading and so it takes me longer to understand the content. Web users have been trained for years to read text this way and suddenly you decide to switch standards because of some vague nonsense that does not jive with the experience of... anyone I know who uses the internet to learn about things. So I reiterate: the new layout is poorly designed, not properly tested and vetted, and should not have been used

    To add emphasis to my position I posted on social media a screen shot of the current Wikipedia main page appearance and I received NO positive comments and everyone who did comment thought it was a terrible design and difficult to read.

    I am an average person, not an editor on Wikipedia. I opened an account specifically to lodge complaints since Wikipedia has NO other means to receive bug reports or complaints about features and Wikipedia has a habit of introducing ill considered features and pats itself on the back for making things difficult for people. This is me going out of my way and inconveniencing myself as well as wasting my time... If I am here complaining you can be sure thousands of others who couldn't be arsed to go to the trouble I have feel the same way. That should tell you something. But you're not listening. Ikaruseijin (talk) 10:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It actively disrupts my reading and so it takes me longer to understand the content. Well you're among the minority of people then. I'm not saying that your opinion cannot be weighed I'm just saying that they decided to cater to most people.

    {tq|I received NO positive comments}} There will always tend to be more negative comments about anything. If one is content they don't comment anything. If one thinks the thing is really really really good then they'll comment. If one think that it's bad they will comment. Wikipedia has NO other means to receive bug reports You might be interested in our phabricator. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:16, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    On a side note, a skin designed for mobile doesn't have to enforce a limit on the width of the main text flow, because the device does so by itself. More indicative of mobile-friendly designs are pages composed of modular blocks whose relative positions don't play a role in their function, so they can be easily rearranged to fit within the available space. Vector 2022 isn't a lot different than the original Vector in this respect. I agree the greater reliance on icons is influenced in part by mobile designs. isaacl (talk) 18:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I am glad you know about these things because I don't. All I can do is relate how the design feels. That is what I was expressing. It feels like it was designed for mobile; poorly designed and improperly formatted for the desktop web experience. Which is what the new layout is: Poorly designed and improperly formatted. Ikaruseijin (talk) 10:42, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Sure, I was just responding to your question "Why else all the dead space and constrained text except to fit on an iPad/tablet or smartphone?" In fact, since smaller screens have less room for content, whitespace is usually reduced on these devices, so if a given design didn't consider larger screens at all, the content would fill the whole space. I appreciate you dislike aspects of the design and that's fine to discuss on their own, without worrying about whether or not the whitespace is related to a mobile-friendly design. isaacl (talk) 22:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi, @Isaacl. I've been wondering about this for a while. Why do so many people think V22 looks like mobile? Your point about no big margins on mobile matches my thinking. Is it the icons? (Apologies for posting to an old thread, I've been taking a break from WP "inside baseball".) ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 08:48, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Icons, it's thinner, and its simpler-looking. Those are the likely three that cause people to think this is a mobile-oriented redesign. Cessaune [talk] 10:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I think people are eliding their comments a bit in their reaction to influences from mobile design. As I mentioned, the use of icons is in part influenced by mobile designs (internationalization is another influence). Collapsible menus have always been around on desktop-focused web sites since Javascript support (and later, additional CSS features) was added to browsers, but due to limited screen space, mobile designs typically either have moved lengthy menus to the bottom of the page or made them accessible through a menu. Simpler-looking interfaces were of course not invented for mobile (Google being the obvious example), but at an instinctual level, less stuff on the screen might be equated with how pages appear on mobile, even if the reasons are different (design choice versus screen size limitation). isaacl (talk) 17:44, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I think there should be a discussion if this design is even better than Minerva. This is such a mobile focused design (even if that wasn't what they meant to do) that I think Minerva is actually a better desktop design than vector 2022. 2601:246:CD80:8210:148C:E4F4:B7FF:B83F (talk) 19:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It's more than just icons and simplicity, although those certainly contribute to the mobile feel. Mobile-first designs typically add more vertical scrolling to make up for the reduced horizontal content area, as well as use mobile-first semantics like hiding everything behind icons (because you don't want to waste screen real estate with words on a small phone screen). Also, extremely width-limited sites are usually indicative of a web developer creating a site for a narrow screen without understanding how to implement responsive design properly. Basically, just imagine a site that looks fine on a phone but rendered on a much wider desktop monitor with no code changes. It'll look like a phone layout in the middle of the screen with massive amounts of whitespace on either side. And that's exactly what Vector2022 looks like on high-res displays. Trynn (talk) 22:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, as I mentioned, content and iconography are characteristic of mobile designs. But a site that looks fine on a phone that wasn't designed to accommodate larger displays won't have massive whitespace, because whitespace is reduced for phone-oriented designs in order to maximize the amount of content shown. Web pages aren't like the old iOS phone apps that were simply scaled up to fit onto on iPad screen. I understand and appreciate why some dislike the whitespace with Vector 2022, and we certainly should discuss this. We needn't worry, though, that the motivation was to make the page fit onto a phone display. isaacl (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Web pages aren't like the old iOS phone apps that were simply scaled up to fit onto on iPad screen But that's exactly the point. Properly responsively designed pages shouldn't look like old iOS phone apps scaled to fit on a larger display, but Vector 2022 does look like that. That's a major part of the criticism that it looks like it was designed for a phone. Trynn (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The irony is that pages improperly designed only for phone displays have the opposite issue: excessively wide content areas. isaacl (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

34. Support unless Question 2 is adopted Taking on one of the primary concerns of the original RFC as an opt in toggle is ridiculous. 'You can turn the horrific amounts of whitespace off!' should never be the response to feedback. They should be gone by default. Make a toggle that says "Research supported way to read!!!!" that reintroduces them. Parabolist (talk) 07:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
35. Strongly support: I spent a couple of hours trying without success to revert to something I could navigate easily (e.g. Watchlist on the page rather through an opaque drop-down menu). But you have to understand more than I did to do so, e.g. knowing what CSS, Monobook and original Vector meant. Some of the new features are in fact welcome (for example, putting contents in the sidebar rather than below the lead), but overall, the new design is vexing, frustrating and hard to navigate. If technically possible (in an easier and less-confusing way) let editors choose what's useful or preferable for them. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Shakescene While it isn't clear at first glance, the watchlist is already at the top, it's represented by a button with three lines and a star to the left or the user dropdown. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    This is one of my gripes about the new version: why use icons when words will work much better. Why add some of the clear links at the top of the page into a dropdown box (I use the Sandbox a lot and I now have to go through two clicks when one used to do. If I want to go to my watchlist, I have to look at the unclear icons and try and decipher them. - SchroCat (talk) 14:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Similarly, I often use "Contributions" to continue working on articles I recently edited, and Vector 2022 places that two clicks away instead of the 2010's skin one click. ~ HAL333 22:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Same for me. Æo (talk) 22:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It's incredibly isn't it. In the chase for mobile clicks they've forgot that humans on this site use English words, not emoticons. Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

36. Strong Support I'm a user who uses Wikipedia several times a day for professional, personal, and casual purposes. I usually stay logged out, as I have no reason to log in unless I would want to participate on a talk page or edit a protected page, which is a rare occasion. I have two major things to say about this. FIRSTLY: the first time I heard about this new skin was today, when it happened, but apparently discussion has been going on about this for months? This discussion obviously excluded the vast swaths (likely the vast majority?) of users like me - people who use Wikipedia constantly but don't ever log in and keep up with the community. This, to me, is evidence that whatever conversations were had were failures - how can daily users to this site have been unaware that this was in the works for months if the conversations had were adequate? SECONDLY: Why is this layout leaning so hard into a mobile-oriented layout? Doesn't the mobile site already exist for people who wanted this layout? My first reaction to this update was to assume I had wandered on the mobile site by accident. If an article has a lot of pictures (like most articles about topics that are even sort of noteworthy), you can barely read a full sentence that isn't split in half by a line break. The last few minor things I have to say: 1) At least the custom-preference option gives me a reason to stay logged in now. 2) I will not, in the future, be donating to the WMF whenever they ask if decisions like this are going to be made with no meaningful (once again, I'm on this site every day and had no clue about this) notice or feedback beforehand. 3) Even Monospace is a better skin than this new one. To conclude, please just revert the default skin back to Vector 2010. People who actually wanted this new one can change their own preferences to reflect it. Teddybearearth (talk) 07:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
37. Support Regardless of the merits of the skin itself, this was forced through with an extremely shaky interpretation of consensus, and should be reverted until there is actual consensus. ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 08:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
38. Support for all the support reasons given above, because opposes and badgering like "the devs know better" are not convincing (certainly considering the track record of the WMF devs), and because the new design is a poorer, unintuitive experience, with issues like rarely used options prominently displayed (in text mode even, not as an icon) hile much more common tools are hidden behind obscure icons; all the issues with the "language" dropdown (too many to enumerate here); and the basi, extremely poor design choice to have an extra band of menu items between the article title and the body of the article, creating a "top menu - underlined title - underlined second menu - text" order which makes absolutely no sense. Fram (talk) 09:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Personally I think moving the second menu below the article title makes sense. It's the article container. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    It's mixing contents and menus in an unnecessary and distracting way (I have just switched back to Vector22 to check my reply, and it is even worse than I remembered, with a menu on top, one on the same line ("languages"), and one below the title! I also again checked the "languages" dropdown, and oh boy, what a total mess (test on Prix-lès-Mézières). "Worldwide", I get Spanish, Portuguese, and French. Then a subsection "America", where I get the same languages, plus things like "Veneto" (in America?). Then a subsection "Europe", which suddenly goes in two colums, with a gap in the left side column for no discernible reason. In the section "Africa", French is missing. And so on... testing on Barack Obama: the "Worldwide" subheader means that instead of a neutral, alphabetical order, you now get an order decided on by some developer (I know, they know better, we should shut up) which means that very small constructed languages come near the top (in the "Worldwide" section), while major languages like Japanese are near the bottom. On articlees with few languages, like Miguel Escalona (Chilean footballer), you get a shortened search in the languages, with the text "search for a". Yep, clearly tested, works as expected. Fram (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I still don't see how it's distracting, it's alright for me. I don't get the shortened "search for a" bug and I like to idea of it but WTF is this sorting? Aaron Liu (talk) 13:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Good for you if 4 instead of 2 places to find menu items isn't distracting, nor the "underline the title, then underline the menu below it as well", nor the "hey, we have text menu items, and icon menu items, but we didn't have a text + icon yet, let's use that for "languages"!" anomaly. The infallible developers seem to have mistaken the old "tab" design of the "article / talk / ..." menu line for aun underlined one, and when putting it below the title, have somewhat recreated that look which no longer has any meaning here, and only distracts (the old menu had "article" and "read" in white as active "tabs", and things like "talk" and "edit" in gray as inactive tabs: the new vector tries to achieves this by bolder underlining vs. less bold underlining, which just looks amateuristic. The more I use it, the more I see small issues indicating that this product isn't finished at all; e.g. in the old design, if I open Twinkle (the "TW" drop down) and then "More" (the "Move" dropdown), these stand next to each other: in the new layout, the Twinkle one partially obscures the Move one. Another issue: in preview, you get no TOC??? That's seriously annoying. Fram (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

39. Support The way the change was approved in the first place looks dubious to me. This was a big enough change to justify posting to everyone's talk page asking for an opinion. But it was hidden away on some noticeboard, frequented by some, but not enough to justify the change. Even then, there were many in opposition, with a suspicious concensus. Wikipedia may not be a democracy, but it is a community project and the community was not sufficiently consulted on the change- simply because most people weren't aware. JohnmgKing (talk) 09:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
40. Strong Support. I did not create this account to change Wikipedia's skin back to the good one from this horrid pseudo-mobile "New Reddit" one - if you'd make me do that, you clearly don't want me here, so I'm not even going to bother - I created this account to let you know that this entire debacle demonstrates that you have great contempt for your users, laundered through hokey pseudo-science of the worst sort, and if you're really going to force this nonsense on everyone, ruining what remains of the good that people have created through this institution - something legendary in the whole history of humanity, like a modern day Library of Alexandria, as a particularly shining subset of the internet as a whole - then you are all deep, deep in an unrecoverable stage of collapse. I dearly hope you reconsider. Make me feel like a curious young researcher gathering information on all the most fascinating topics in the world, not like a bored dying man with dementia in a nursing home reading insultingly ugly large print magazines about nothing. Good night. Your Design Is Bad (talk) 09:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Moved this comment up from the Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Vector 2022 Post-Deployment Update from WMF Team section. --Kizor 10:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

41. Support reversion. The many responses I see, from editors and readers, range from "What happened?" to "Please revert" to the unprintable. I see very little praise for the change. Many developers have obviously worked long and hard on Vector 2022, and I thank them for producing an alternative skin which some people will prefer. However, it is very far from being the popular choice and should not be the default. Certes (talk) 10:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
42. Strong support The new layout is a complete joke. Extremely bad, utterly useless. If you do not bring back the old layout, wikipedia is going down for sure. I will stop contributing and using wikipedia from now onwards if the old layout is not brought back.130.88.16.130 (talk) 10:42, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
43. Support in the strongest possible way. I do not like a bit of the new skin. I do think vast majority of users and editors feel the same as I. I edit both with and without login. How do I permanently go back to the old skin without login? I am simply unable and uncomfortable to edit in the new skin.Sunlitsky (talk) 10:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
44. Support. Not even sure if my IP status allows me to comment, but the new requirement for needing JavaScript to view the Table of Contents is bad. For safety and security I don't have JavaScript enabled on any site, so I can't currently see any ToC, nor can I widen the view with the box icon. Thus diminishing the utility of Wikipedia. Plus having useful links hidden behind unnamed icons that require extra clicks just to see what is there is annoying and time wasting. 113.211.110.53 (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Indeed. It is terrible practice to require JavaScript. There are numerous problems with JavaScript, not least of which is security. Plenty of people globally disable JavaScript because it's dangerous. There is no good reason for requiring it on Wikipedia. 2600:1700:1471:2550:6002:A2:F43C:2665 (talk) 22:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

45. Support The new version has too many problems, especially with regards to inflexibly-wasted screen space. Cosmetic and usability changes are fine, but this one is measurably less useful in many ways than the existing skin. --Jayron32 12:04, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
46. Strong support. I reverted to Vector 2010 immediately. The old Vector provides for much easier work regarding languages (without having to open a menu to see whether a language version is available), has much less whitespace, and is supported by the developed tools. In addition, I find the mixing of various grays on the same page (sidebar vs the article) a poor design choice. Vector 2022 can remain available to opt in, but it is definitely less usable and less aesthetic than the legacy skin. The only thing that I like about the new skin is the availability of the TOC when scrolling. It is sad that the Foundation has unilaterally imposed its decision on the community without a proper consensus but has not supported it where it really matters (for example regarding tech for Commons). If there is a demise of Wikipedia, it will stem from the ever-increasing gap between the Foundation and the community. --TadejM ^{my talk} 12:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I would in particular highlight the lack of a static TOC as the key element breaking visually the layout for pages. For example, the header of sl:Wikipedija:Pod lipo (Slovene version of the Village pump) seems very fine with Vector2010, but with Vector2022 it has enormous empty space. In addition, the ToC ID-s used by both headers differ, so the Template:Skip to bottom does not work with both versions and an anchor has to be inserted manually. Very appalling. Many users keep using Vector2010 and it is extremely difficult to design the layout solidly for both skins. --TadejM ^{my talk} 05:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

47. Support As I said in the previous RfC on the matter, Vector 2022 has far too much whitespace and no clear reason for it, particularly when viewing the skin on a large desktop monitor. The toggle to enlarge the page to fill the width of the screen is entirely too small and virtually impossible to notice until you are told that it's there (I know because I tested this, and spent several minutes looking for it). Hiding the languages menu behind an English language dropdown is also of little help to users. In general, there is too much hidden behind icons that, while they may be plainly conspicuous on a mobile display, need to be hunted down on a normal wide display computer screen. Vector 2022, in my humble opinion, should be recalled (at least for desktop users), at least until the Foundation figures out a way to make it possible for unregistered users to select their preferences and have those preferences persist across sessions. The majority of unregisted users do not want to create accounts simply to change how Wikipedia looks; if they wanted an account, they wouldn't be unregistered users. If we want new people to create accounts, it should be done via improving Wikipedia (in all the many ways we might do that), not by telling people to register in order to fix what they perceive as a failure to improve Wikipedia. Pinging @HumanBodyPiloter5. silvia (BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 12:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
48. Support. The new design is worse just because of the major waste of screen space. Endianer (talk) 12:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
49. Support on behalf of all the people who don't edit here who have expressed their loathing of it. XOR'easter (talk) 13:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm also hearing from people that font rendering now changes in the middle of scrolling. This whole "update" is strange and under-tested. XOR'easter (talk) 01:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

50. Strong support. What a waist of space on the screen. If you want to change to a different language only 10 out of 100 are shown. For the other languages you have to scroll inside a tiny mini window. --Boehm (talk) 13:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Note: After switching languages a few time it will recommend you the languages you like and there is a search bar. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    No, nothing will be recommended, because I usually clear cookies after closing the browser. And by the way, I do not have a prefferd language. I just want to select myself. Everything was fine before the change. --Boehm (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

51. Strong support: There has been a strong negative backlash against Vector 2022 from both registered and unregistered users (e.g. here and here). The new interface has many problems: the width, the lateral TOC, the general impression that it is designed for mobile, amongst many others. Ultimately, the community does not seem to like and approve the new interface.--Æo (talk) 14:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Further strengthening of my support: The more I experiment with V2022, the more I think that V2010 is far better. Even the elimination of the azure lines that in V2010 clearly traced the boundaries between the article/encyclopedia and the user tools/menus is a step backwards into utter confusion; please restore an appropriate functional differentiation between the parts of the Wikipedian "organism".--Æo (talk) 16:31, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

52. Support: This shouldn't have been pushed out as the default skin for unregistered readers without the accessibility issues being properly addressed. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi @Hey man im josh - if you have a moment, could you specify which accessibility issues you are referring to? This will help us triage specific concerns. Thank you! OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 18:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

53. Strong support - Every single response I've seen to this change from unregistered non-editors has been overwhelmingly negative, which throws any of the suggestions that this was a change for the sake of readers and that the editors participating in the discussion were a biased sample out of the window. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 14:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    For everything, comments will be biased towards negative, since if a reader looks and thinks there is no problem or there’s an improvement they won’t bother leaving a comment unless it’s exceptionally good. There were also reader surveys that indicated more readers liked the new skin. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

54. support – I find the new version interesting but ultimately inferior. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:41, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Or at least make an .old.wikipedia handle with the old skin (it is not perfect either, but much better than this mobile device oriented, hard to read, wasteful, eyeburning white design for a desktop users), this push of new skin onto users looks realy forced and not needed. IJustCreatedAccountBecauseOfThis1diocy (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    As said in the FAQ this is very hard for the resources. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

55. Support while question #2 not being addressed. As an IP reader and editor, aside create an account or programming tweaks, the only way I've found to use the old good UI is to append «?useskin=vector» to every requested URL. 37.134.90.176 (talk) 15:01, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
56. Support the old 2010 skin as the default. At minimum there needs to be a way to one-click revert (session lasting) to the 2010 skin, and this needs to be available to all users. Not just logged in users. Most users never log in. Wikipedia is dramatically degraded on desktop browsers currently. This really does need to be fixed. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4102:7C99:2804:8FC3 (talk) 15:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
57. Support - The new skin, Vector2022, inferior to Vector2010. The new version may be better for readers, but it is awful for those of us who edit regularly. My tools which were previously visible above the page content are buried now in drop down menus with silly icons that don't make sense to me, I am wasting time looking for things that are now in illogical places. The left hand side bar is definitely NOT an improvement, it's just bad design, and those tools have also disappeared, replaced in some instances with the TOC. The TOC should remain in the article content. I tried it out several times before the offical roll out, and have been testing it since it became the default, and I am convinced that the new skin is NOT an improvement. Vector2010 was not broken, so why "fix" it? Please restore Vector 2010 as the default skin, and call Vector 2022 something else. Netherzone (talk) 15:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
58. Support, I guess... but nothing stopped WMF from deploying the skin regardless of the previous RfC. So I don't expect anything else than this one being chucked away with the usual "resistance to change" argument. At this point I oppose the misguided design goals more than anything else. —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 16:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Again, WMF deployed it according to the misguided closing consensus of the rfc, not against it Aaron Liu (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I didn't say anything about deploying according to or against RfC. I specifically said "regardless of .. RfC". —  HELLKNOWZ ∣ TALK 17:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I am confused, doesn’t regardless of… mean they ignored it? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

59. Support in principle, even though it will never happen. The real solution is to create extensions for Scalar that will restore the core fratures of Vector.small jars tc 16:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
60. Support. Tastes do differ, I personally dislike the new layout although believe there are many who accept it. But the way the changes are enforced is plainly insulting. For a long-time editor like me this has been immensely frustrating and I imagine how it feels for unregistered users. The changes must be rolled back. The communication did not happen. The visible and clear notification (not a banner) must be placed in the header, on the main page, everywhere, with an explanation: what is going to happen and what to do. The toggle to switch on or off must be accessible for every user. No dark patterns. A simple form must be proposed to all users: Do you prefer this one or that one. No bad-faith interpretation of metrics. The way it was done it is humiliating. — 2dk (talk) 16:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
61. Support - WMF has fundamentally failed to to bring the community on board with this change. The skin has many well discussed issues: limiting width of content area is absolute nonsense, hiding tools and buttons behind additional clicks makes the experience worse, hiding optout in preferences and then claiming that the optout rate is not high is deceptive, the TOC is worse than before, there are notable bugs, to name just a few. This is all compounded by the fact that logged-out users are not left with any means of using the old skin, and that the width button is non-persistent for logged in users.
    Further to this, WMF has show that it has no interest in consensus building or engaging with the community, as is very evident by the fact that when they had an RFC go against them, they ignored it, and decided that no further RFC is necessary since it obviously would not result in the correct answer.
    This design is the very definition of form over function. The rollout could have been done much better, by progressively rolling the theme to more and more users and carefully listening to the feedback and monitoring the optout rates. Given that this is a product by paid designers working full time for years, it shouldn't have resulted in such poor reception. WMF should revert this change and try again later when their design is approved of by the community. Melmann 16:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
62. Support - It has been said that this skin is better for readers, however the needs of readers depend on the device and its screen. It is obvious that the skin is something of a port of the mobile interface to a desktop one, an unfortunate but increasingly common trend in today's user-facing interfaces. This is a disservice to desktop users. The driver is not usability, rational design or aesthetics but unified software development, an efficiency (cost-cutting) prerogative. The underlying thinking is that most users read most output on mobile/small/haptic-optimized screens, and they are not going to be bothered much by the change to desktop interfaces. This may not be the case with Wikipedia articles which may be longer and more complex with added media that can be visually and logically better accessed with a larger screen, so that one gets the full impact of the article rather than constantly scrolling (apparent) fragments. This new mobile-to-desktop trend is also ill-suited to interactive sites with anything more than very simple user input. For highly interactive, user-input-intensive functions such as writing prose, adding media, logically arranging an article etc. it is supremely unsuitable. Not all change is good, or even neutral, and one person's progress may be another person's regression. 208.253.152.74 (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    The new skin was not designed with mobile in mind, see the FAQ Aaron Liu (talk) 16:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Ok. But this RfC is an example of my previous comment. Anyone who can follow this discussion on a 6-inch screen with the same comfort and comprehension as in a 26-inch screen is a better person than I am. 208.253.152.74 (talk) 18:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    That's a blatant lie, and they know it. This entire new skin was designed with two things in mind: ad space and mobile users. 198.21.192.40 (talk) 23:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Hard disagree. There is zero chance this skin was designed for ad space. If the WMF ran third-party ads on Wikipedia, then the WP:FRAM controversy would look like a drop in the bucket. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 06:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, never say never. The re-landscaping of screen real estate certainly allows the future option for adding all kinds of extraneous material, including ads. Like every bureaucracy, WMF keeps finding new things to do, subtly, incrementally (and sometimes unilaterally) expanding its scope beyond what has been originally put forth. Language is an ally: the more slogan-like it is, the more obfuscating, vague, and therefore expandable its meaning is. 172.254.255.250 (talk) 16:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I really don't see any reason for WMF to add ads. On one hand it violates a frick ton of policies, guidelines and ethics, on the other hand they are already financially sustainable. Plus since most Wikipedia frequenters (at least editors) have adblockers that would cut the WMF a lot of money. Even if they still use donation drives after putting up ads there would be a ton less people donating because ads are already upthere. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

63. Strongest possible support - What actual advantages does this skin provide that cannot be implemented in a hybrid of Vector 2010? Color blind friendly purple clicked links? TOC on the left sidebar? Images in search? These things are absolutely possible to put into Vector 2010 (and I have the first two via plugins already). A restricted reading width could be a toggled option in such a hybrid. I'm not interested in throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but I see zero reason to keep Vector 2022 as default to maintain these marginal improvements for our end reader at the expense of many extremely plausible downsides. I would also echo Red-tailed Hawk's A/B testing proposal as actual evidence rather than the supposition that has been provided to us. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 17:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
64. Support I don't hate Vector 2022, though I do like it less than 2010. I do, though, think it's borderline unacceptable that you have to log in to change between styles. I think that, for as big a change as this is, broader and firmer support should've been built up before WMF pushed the change. I think that trying to enact the change on the basis of very shaky results solicited from ~300 active editors is bordering on the negligent- readers have as much of a stake in Wikipedia's usability as do editors- maybe more, as they're likely to be less experienced at using and navigating the site- and that's a tiny fraction of editors, anyway. For myself, I saw or heard nothing of the coming change that I can recall, and I use Wikipedia every day, and I see multiple comments above to the same effect. I guess that getting a good indication of reader preferences might be hard, but Vector 2022 should not be mandatory or default without a clear mandate from Wikipedia users as a whole. Yspaddadenpenkawr (talk) 18:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
65. Support While not against a redesign in general, the crazy amount of white space is distracting every-time it loads I think I'm on the mobile version. chiffre01 (talk) 15:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
66. Support The previous RFC did not establish community consensus to change the default style. Yet another example of the WMF pretending to care about volunteer concerns, but ultimately doing what they had intended from the start regardless. MrsSnoozyTurtle 21:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
67. Support I have had an account for going on 15 years, rarely edit anymore but I was so abhorred by the design change I had to make my voice heard, please change it back. --Flappychappy (talk) 21:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
68. Support I appreciate the people who did their best and put in effort into doing what they felt would improve reading and editing for everyone on Wikipedia, but it is clear that the design was not truly approved of beforehand by the majority of users. This coupled with the issues that have arrisen makes me feel that going back to the 2010 version as standard is for the best.★Trekker (talk) 21:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
69. Support My main concern is for text width, but more broadly it seems based on what I have read so far is that a consensus does not appear to have been reached prior to implementation, which ought to be done first. Nl4real (talk) 22:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
70. Support per nom. I never even heard of the new skin before it suddenly showed up with the horrible whitespace and janky layout. A change this huge, and this controversial, should have had an actual consensus before being forced on all readers. --HappyWith (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
71. Strong support: At least as long as logged-out users have to use this as the default layout, I am against it. Requiring the creation of an account just to use the arguably better skin is no different than what Fandom/Wikia does. I have no problem with it being an option, just not the default. gangplank galleon (talk) 23:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
72. Support I've thought over this for awhile now, and I land in the Support column for a variety of reasons. First, in my view the original RFC didn't have a consensus to implement Vector 2022 and the closing statement of the RFC has always kinda baffled me, but that's neither here nor there at this point. Second, I love the width toggle, but the fact that it doesn't persist should've been fixed before the rollout took place. Third, I really feel like the Page Tools and customizable user menu should've been in the skin before the rollout took place too. I think that would've at least calmed down the whitespace complaints somewhat. Also won't belabor the point since it's apparently going to be easier to develop one with Vector 2022, but having a dark mode would've helped this complaint too. Fourth, I will take the WMF's word that Vector 2022 wasn't designed for mobile, but it does have some of the hallmarks of moble web design (text in the middle, hamburger button, etc). I know it's only two people, but here's two of my friends reactions to seeing Vector 2022 for the first time (warning: language): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/499649691714060299/1066137406576787506/image.png. I don't know how the developers of Vector 2022 could make it look less mobile-y, but there you go. Fifth, the mystery meat navigation issue that was brought up in the original RFC and again here hasn't been fixed. Finally, I feel like Vector 2022 is still not ready for primetime. It feels like a version 0.7 or 0.8 in that it's getting there, but is not fully ready. These are my thoughts anyway. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 23:39, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
73. Strong support on returning to Vector 2010. I think that my main gripe is the TOC. I understand that there's configuration option however the default view is pretty bad and I think increases the number of clicks to get to the information I want. For example on a page with a lot of sub categories, I often find it useful to scan the ENTIRE list to jump directly to the section I'm interested in. Now, again unless customizes, things are collapsed by default AND formatted in a way that makes it difficult to read long titles. So if I'm not logged in, or for any of the HUGE amount of ip only users and editors, it's now multiple clicks to get to relevant information. In the past this was literally the one click to open the page, and the one click on the section desired. Now we're up to potentially 4/5 clicks after getting to the page for what just last week was a single click action.
    I'm also going to put in here similar text from my post on the Talk page on Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements:
    Now that this change has launched why not put this up to ALL users? Put a banner on the top of articles similar to the donation banner and see how desktop users actually respond. If the attitude of "we know change is scary, you'll get used to it, we've done research!" shown in this condescending article must be forced I'm sure a developer would love to make sure that banner shows up only on devices that have had the new layout for "long enough". You could even randomize that, see what a user thinks on day 3 vs day 15.
    If the Wikimedia foundation actually cares about user feedback I don't see why this can't be done. I think it's fairly obvious that a tiny fraction of Wikipedia users actually create an account and basing this change on what has amounted to ~170 users feedback is disingenuous. Show us you care, show us you want to see your research actually validated, it might be, but it's also ok to get it wrong too. I understand the value in continually looking forward and not settling where we are, but if you're going to use "research" as your backing, see if the hypothesis is correct. Zdwagz (talk) 23:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    This is the opinion of a brand new user. Its their first edit. Its great not to have to scroll all the way up of a long article or talk page but just be able to scroll quickly through the sections in the sidebar. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    So a new user (who, for all you know, has been an IP user for years) shouldn't have any say in the matter? Curious. 73.8.230.57 (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Often, users who show up specifically to champion some particular cause have their opinions given less weight. In this case, though, they definitely shouldn't, since this is an issue of design preferences that everyone who reads this website has a reasonable stake in. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 05:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    And here I thought that an opinion was considered according to its own validity. Not according to official or unofficial club membership, or conspiracy theories and biases regarding the presumed intentions of the signature. That signature is as good as the latest comment preceding it. 172.254.255.250 (talk) 16:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yeah sorry for the late reply, you didn't ping me. As for me, if you want to collaborate on wikipedia seriously, you should create an account. Now to revert to Vector 10 for IPs or newly created accounts who's votes include terms that can be understood in a negative way..., no way. Those votes will just not weigh against the votes of accounts with several years counting. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes first edit but if you see actually looked, the account was created in 2013. I'm a reader, which is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia. Everyone isn't here to edit and editors shouldn't get special sway on how readers see things. Zdwagz (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @73.8.230.57; @Compassionate727: Paradise Chronicle's message referred to the fact that Zdwagz's comment was originally posted on top of the RfC when it was located at the Village pump; the comment was later moved into the appropriate subsection and afterwards the entire RfC was relocated to its (this) separate page. Æo (talk) 14:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I can only agree with Zdwagz about the problems of the new lateral ToC: it has completely lost its functionality of giving a complete overview of the article, of allowing the reader/editor to move forthwith to the section/subsection of interest, of creating a distinction between the article's lead and the article's body. These problems have been raised by many users, both registered and unregistered. Let me abridge: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, amongst other discussions, including my commentary and proposal of alternatives in the previous RfC. Æo (talk) 15:00, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    For me it becomes an issue when the ToC is extensive in length and depth. For brief ToC's, the side table is more than acceptable. Perhaps there could be a "__ FORCE_INLINE_TOC __" option for such articles? Praemonitus (talk) 15:10, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, the old ToC was useful especially in long articles and talk pages, while short articles and stubs without a certain number of subsections didn't have it. As pointed out by StarTrekker here, the new ToC "makes every article look like a stub". Æo (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Æo, would you strike my name from the list above, or mark it in some way to show I don't agree with your conclusion? I don't want to be cited in support of your position; I think the new skin is an improvement over all and the ToC issue is a minor point that doesn't change my view. I see at least one other editor cited in your list who has opposed this RfC, below, so you might make your caveat more general than just naming me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Mike Christie: Yes, I removed your name. Apologies. It was intended as a list of commentators to the various discussions about the problems of the ToC.--Æo (talk) 16:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    No problem; it clearly wasn't intentionally misleading. I do think you should still hedge your comment a bit more since a negative comment about the ToC doesn't imply support for reverting to Vector 2010, but our exchange here is probably enough to point that out. Thanks for the edit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:36, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    There are many comments about the ToC at mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements too; a particularly thoughtful one, in my opinion, is Bring back the TOC (21:35, 20 January). Æo (talk) 19:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

74. YES Definitely return to the vector skin! 2601:644:401:39D0:79D9:58C3:3B6D:651E (talk) 00:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
75. Support: While there are some things I like about the new update, the negatives of it outweigh the positives. So much so that I've come out of my three-month hiatus just to talk to y'all. My main issue with this update has to be the empty white area that takes up a good portion of the screen. It's ugly and wastes too much space. It looked way better when the area was actually used for the words and images. Now you have to scroll more due to the text being so narrow rather than being able to see the big picture. Another thing I hate has to be that everything is now in a drop-down menu instead of being laid out like before. And no, this isn't a case of I hate change, or I will get used to it.
    However, I do love that the table of contents now follows you instead of having to scroll up to change your spot in an article. Also, I asked some of my friends to see if they noticed any change (because I was curious), and one of the three said they did. So I guess it is a subtle change. Wowzers122 (talk) 01:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
76. Support I will stop using Wikipedia and exclusivly use other sources if I am unable to see the old format. The new format is THAT bad. 2603:3023:180:4800:38B1:9CEB:5048:5F2C (talk) 01:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
77. Strong Support I have been a regular, casual user of Wikipedia nearly since the site launched and have neither had nor wanted an account until this UI rollout forced me to create one to revert back to a more usable layout. The Wikipedia Privacy Policy starts off by saying "Because we believe that you shouldn’t have to provide personal information to participate in the free knowledge movement"^[1], yet I feel as if I was forced to provide a username and password in order to continue participating in using the site. This increases my Internet footprint and its associated risks and I am not happy about that. In addition, the discussions I've read from WMF have seemed quite dismissive of criticism regarding the new UI and its rollout, and IP users do not seem to be considered a part of the "community" in any of these discussions. Furthermore, the stated metrics that WMF is looking at to gauge success of the new skin do not actually measure KPIs related to satisfaction with the new skin among non-logged-in users. As long as a user has to be logged in to change the UI to a usable layout, this new skin should be rolled back. Trynn (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
78. Support. Given the large number of bugs and other issues being raised at the Village Pump, this was far premature, especially since the WMF's record for supporting the tools and interfaces they push out suggests that most of these issues will probably never be fixed. Eventually, we need to do a large survey of the reader base to determine which is actually better, but for now, the lack of one is not a good reason to oppose reversion (or support it, for that matter), since without knowing what readers we think, we kind of have to let editors control this decision. That said, the large number of IPs and SPAs commenting here suggest the change is deeply controversial at best, especially given the immense hurdle readers would have needed to jump to find this. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
79. Support It seems that a majority of users here would rather have the old layout be the default, and I agree. Personally, I am specifically not happy with the amount of whitespace in the new layout. ―NK1406 01:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
80. Strongest possible support, far too much white space on the left and many formerly easy to find links are several clicks away. 1.136.110.165 (talk) 02:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC).[reply]
81. Heavy Support Too much white space. Irritates the eyes. The fact that IP users still can't change visual preferences is also an insult to those with visual impairments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.8.230.57 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Indeed. It violates MOS:ACCESSIBILITY. ~ HAL333 02:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

82. Support on behalf of unregistered users and readers. The older version of Vector itself in my opinion is inferior in most respects and I have never used it (the appearance of mysterious symbols and lots of white space serves as a useful signal that I've been logged out), so I wasn't able to respond very usefully to the "what do you think of these projected skin changes?" questions the WMF asked me over the past year or two. But I'm hearing from people who do use Vector that the new version requires significant juggling of column width and other settings to be made usable, that things jump around and icons change form in different screens and needed adjustments don't hold in preview mode, and that the list of other-language links appears sorted by some high-handed assumptions about which one should want to see, which is just insulting. Those who use Vector have made clear that the new version is a dog's dinner. Unregistered users have no choice, although someone has already rushed out an app to modify the URLs, which should indicate the reception by actual unregistered readers and editors. Give them back what worked relatively well for them. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Yngvadottir: For those of who are curious and out of the loop, what app are you referring to? —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 03:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Excuse my technical ignorance, extension. For Chrome. (Link via the unnameable site.) Yngvadottir (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

83. STRONG SUPPORT (Redacted). 78.28.44.127 (talk) 03:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not a "perfectly reasonable" vote that got "censored", it's an open-and-shut UAA ban. Also, just looking at the video title, your "immortal clip" is in poor taste. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    You know what's in poor taste? Ninja-deploying an awful layout change that ruins the experience of millions of users without consensus. And the comment was reasonable; they could've--and should've--just redacted the username. 78.28.44.127 (talk) 03:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Pythoncoder: To be honest, I don't know what the normal protocol for such usernames is. But in this case, I think it would have been better to just redact the username. (To be clear, I don't think Donald Albury's revert was unreasonable. I just would have handled the comment differently. The IP's assumption of bad faith is worse, but there probably isn't a point trying to lecture him about it.) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 05:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    On reflection, I agree, redacting the username without reverting the post would have been better, but I got called away from WP immediately after that for a couple of hours, and didn't see any great need to to try to fix that later. Donald Albury 15:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

84. Support The whitespace problem needs to fixed before Vector 2022 is deployed. One of the pros listed of the spec page is 'Less scrolling'. This couldn't be further from the truth. My 1920 x 1080 is now almost 50% whitespace, meaning there is less text forcing me scroll almost twice as much to read the same amount of text. Gehyra Australis (talk) 03:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Agree with the white/wasted-space issue and increased scrolling required to read text. It is even worse for those using 4:3 aspect-ratio monitors or large font-sizes for accessibility. Hopefully people don't get carpal tunnel syndrome from the excessive mouse scrolling. 98.149.164.167 (talk) 09:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

85. Support But what does it matter? Machinations like this are WMF's bread and butter and it doesn't seem like they care what any volunteer editors think. Azx2 04:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
86. Strong Support. Despite the claim in the faq that "we do not have plans to merge the desktop and mobile experiences", somebody from the WMF said "While building the skin, we also considered bringing it closer in visual design to the mobile site, so that people reading on mobile can still recognize Wikipedia in its desktop form as well. We also aimed to reduce code for skins overall so that it's easier in the future to build features and adapt them across both desktop and mobile skins." (diff) So while it would probably be histrionic of me to call the claim in the faq a lie, it happens to be the opposite of the truth. This skin is part of extinguishing the desktop idiom. Unwittingly, perhaps, it's part of a cultural trend, beneficial to commercial interests centered around phones and advertising, promotion, tracking, de-powering users and making them passive, and discouraging reading. It's a reaction to the demands of those already steeped in this culture. Many responses around the web have been along the lines of "it looks like the mobile site".  Card Zero  (talk) 04:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
87. Strong support for now Tried using the new Vector for a few days and it's just an irritating experience. For example, there's an issue with text becoming randomly bold while scrolling. It may be a Chromium bug (that's what I heard) but I've never experienced it with the old Vector. The actual root cause is somewhat irrelevant, as it impacts the experience either way. Text also seems lighter and harder to read. Overall it feels like additional polish and time is needed before it goes mainstream. GoPats (talk) 04:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
88. Was never broken, should never have been fixed. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
89. Support The new skin is an eyesore and many regular Wikipedia users had no idea this was happening. A poor consultation process. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 05:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
90. Support if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, especially if most users disagree. Toa Nidhiki05 05:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
91. Support While I understand the motivations behind the update, none of the new features are things I asked for nor what I want. The new layout really irritates my eyes from the excess whitespace and the excessive scrolling I'm now forced to do because of the new width. Additionally, the fact that the settings are no longer immediately available on the left is an annoyance. Overall, the new layout is a detriment to my ability to navigate this website.WikEdits5 (talk) 05:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
92. Strong support. Enormous amounts of white space serve no useful purpose. This is widely known as "Fisher-Price UI design", which is trendy, but usefulness is more important than trendiness. Also, please stop calling the new UI an "improvement". It's not. -- HLachman (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    I like the table of contents on the side, being able to change from an to full-width by clicking on the icon on the bottom right, being able to collapse the side bar, and an uncluttered top bar. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 05:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    OK, but I still think enormous amounts of white space serve no useful purpose. -- HLachman (talk) 06:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreeeee! The last available username (talk) 04:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

93. Strong support The contents section is an entire screen downward now, off to the side, and sub-sections are hidden, whereas before you could see them immediately. This new format is regressive. At the very least, the contents need to be back in the body of the page, either after the article summary, like before, or ahead of it.LkeYHOBSTorItEwA (talk) 05:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
94. Strong support, as strongly as possible. Wikipedia has become practically unnavigable, and at least my eyes get strained from the new layout. Having to dart back and forth every second or two because of how short the lines are when there's tons of eye-burning blank space all around them is just incomprehensible. Reading Wikipedia pages is now genuinely unpleasant and feels harmful to my already bad sight, compared to being comfortable in the past.

    To make it even clearer how bad this is, when I saw the new design (on some pages but not others), at first I was 100% convinced that Wikipedia was having some issues and hoping they'd be fixed. I mean, this new design really seems broken in every way, at least from a reader's perspective (which I count as since I barely edit at all). Literally how I found out that it's not just broken is because of a discussion with other readers about Wikipedia being broken, decided to google to see if anything had been written about it, and... well, you know. VHGW (talk) 06:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Well, looks like I replied to the wrong section because even editing pages doesn't work like it used to. I can't even figure out how to move my comment to the right place... VHGW (talk) 06:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment moved by moi. ~ HAL333 06:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

95. Support as an IP user this is making my life a misery. Setting aside how unfinished the sidebar looks, and the fact useful links like recent changes, contents, recent events and things like user contributions (or "what has my address changed to today") are now hidden behind an extra click, the absolute killer is the stupid waste of screen real estate. Widescreen monitors have been fairly standard for many, many, years now and with the new layout almost half of my screen is whitespace. It is absolutely ridiculous that the only way to override it is either to click the button on every single page I visit or create an account. This is not acceptable to me and I would sooner stop contributing to the project and browse via a fork/mirror than do the latter. 2A02:C7F:2CE3:4700:1081:876B:679F:8E58 (talk) 07:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
96. People are creating accounts just to avoid this skin... ansh.666 09:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    And this is a bad thing? Daniel Case (talk) 02:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. Yes, it is. These users are not going to contribute to Wikipedia in any way, they just want to look up information and we are forcing them to spend time on setting up an account. Just so they can avoid the Vector 2022 layout, which is confusing for many (remember that a lot of people who are inexperienced with computers read Wikipedia daily). To pretend that it is not bad thing or that it is even a good thing is rather absurd... Walter Klosse (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    We've always had users like that, though, who created an account for one reason not really related to editing, and then stayed. But I'd like you to hold this thought and come back in eight years or so, when you'll probably see at least a few userpages with something like "I created an account in 2023 so I could change from the Vector skin to the old look, but then I started editing, and ..." What makes people stay cannot be predicted from what makes them come.

    I also like this "spend time" creating an account. It takes about as much time to set up an account as it did when I did it back in 2005, which is to say less than a minute at the outside. How many other websites that were popular then and now can you also say that about?

    Aside from which, I think this is a very dismissive attitude to have towards new editors that is rather lacking in good faith. Daniel Case (talk) 05:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    @Daniel Case: sorry it's been a couple months, but I think this still deserves a small response: just because something bad unintentionally caused something else that some people may see as a good thing does not mean the original thing is good. I also don't think simply having an account makes people more likely to edit - it's not like they couldn't have done that before. ansh.666 17:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

97. The strongest support possible. This change is outrageous! Very short lines and tons of blank space on both right and left. It's sad that after 18+ YEARS OF CONTRIBUTING, I feel inclined to quit the project rather than putting up with this nonsense. Ghirla^-трёп- 09:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
98. Support vector 2022 is a huge blow to the community. It is blatantly evident that most users(especially the IPs whose contributions are indispensible) are going to stop editing from here onwards if rollback is not carried out asap; in any case, vector 2022 already created so much damages that are irreparable.149.36.19.74 (talk) 09:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
99. Support on grounds that this is a badly-handled change with insufficient notification. (FWIW - I thought my browser was having problems loading the page at first). The individual wikipedias make their own decisions on content and that includes display. GraemeLeggett (talk)
100. Support. While I think Vector2022 has the opportunity to be superior to Vector legacy without too much additional work, I think there are three disservices to our readers that need to be worked out before. (1) overall brightness. So much white causes eye strain. Either a default fixed-width (I'm against), or a design like this would reduce that. (2) link colours. Talked about this to exhaustion. The visited and unvisited links look the same for those with colour blindness and a significant minority struggles with how light the colours are (phab:T213778). A further iteration, with help of experts, is needed to resolve this. (3) Symmetry: even a small asymmetry can lead to pain for those with neck problems.
     As a power user, there are reasons I've switched back to Legacy too, even though I think our readers should be prioritized in the discussion to deploy. For instance, I don't want contributions to be hidden behind two clicks. Some background pages are difficult to navigate without the ability to enable a numbered TOC (like WP:GAR). There are quite a few things broken still (like {{TOC limit}} phab:T317818. While these shouldn't be blocks for deployment, I would like to get more guarentees that they will be worked on. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 10:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
101. Strong support – The new style is horrible with too much white space, there was no consensus for it. Peter Damian (talk) 11:46, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
102. Support. My first reaction was that my browser was acting up (I use Wikipedia daily and I wasn't aware of the change). To those who say "So you think that Wikipedia should never change?", this is my reply: if I have to go north and I notice that I've been driving south for one hour, the only logical reaction is to hit the brakes and do a U-turn. If I keep the course I'll reach my destination only eventually, after circling the globe. The main design choices of the new interface are all pointing south (mystery meat, mobile-friendly line width, less immediate switch to other languages and so on). Rizzardi (talk) 12:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
103. Support - per all of the above. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
104. Strong support - per all of the above. --Blockhaj (talk) 13:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
105. Strong support I've heard claims that this these changes were being openly discussed, but as a long time reader they may as well have been discussed in a basement behind a locked door behind a sign reading "beware of leopard". Literally the first I was aware of changes to the UI was when I opened up a page and suddenly less than half my screen is being used. Why? I've heard claims that it's "more readable" but it really isn't. Seriously, just why? I'm absolutely horrified and appalled by the trend of websites forcing major visual overhauls on their users simply for the sake of looking "sleek, modern and trendy", ESPECIALLY when it looks worse in every way. A desktop site should not look like a mobile app for crying out loud. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.96.162 (talk) 14:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Strongest support - See the textbook case of Last.fm which to this day has not recovered from the embarrassing forced rollout of it's new UI design in 2008. They knew it was unpopular, they did it anyway, the userbase left. This rollout has looked eerily similar so far. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ^{(work / talk)} 16:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC) Eh. Last.fm didn't have a rollback option, so this comment is out of line based on that alone. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ^{(work / talk)} 14:33, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Last.fm actually saw an increase in usage after the redesign according to Comscore [2]. the wub "?!" 17:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     On a site where passive engagement (listening to audio) doesn't require a UX, total minutes is in no way an indication of UX success. TheMissingMuse (talk) 17:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

106. Strongest Support - As someone who is an extensive user of wikipedia (multiple hours per day), but is only a reader and not an editor, I've found Vector 2022 extremely jaring to use. It feels significantly thinner, it wastes a massive amount of horizontal screen real estate, the excessive whitespace is visually offputting to the reading experience, and having to manually toggle the table of contents side bar and the limited content width button for every single article I open when not logged in is extremly frustrating. Additonally, only finding out about the redesign after it had been implimented with seemingly no effort to consult or poll readers/noneditors seems extremly problematic. Wikipedia should probably be optimized for the vast majority of those who use it, and as a reader Vector 22 is simply a downgrade from Vector Legacy. IanKBania (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
107. Strong Support per all of the above. Delphin64 (talk) 17:13, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
108. Support per the default width issue as well as other bizarre UI changes. Cards84664 17:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
109. Support. At this point, I got only one thing to say, RIP Wikipedia. You had a good run. 148.252.35.10 (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     It's just a design change, how does that deathify Wikipedia? Aaron Liu (talk) 22:00, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

110. Support. Ever since the Vector 2022 rollout helpers on IRC have been receiving a tonne of complaints about it, of varying levels of vitriol, to the point we had to include a new bang command pointing to WT:VECTOR2022 (and, more recently, this Request for Comment). The complaints have mainly been about the large amount of whitespace (with at least one legitimately wondering if advertizements were going to start showing up), how squished everything is, and how everything is hidden under a new dropdown menu. This, plus the requirement to register an account to change it (which isn't an option in jurisdictions prone to human rights abuses or which has lese majeste or equivalent laws) is why I have to support the skin being reverted at this time. (Disclosure: I use, and have always used, MonoBook and I was not switched over to Vector '22; I thus have no personal experience using the skin.) —Jéské Couriano (No further replies will be forthcoming.) 21:11, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
111. Support. I supported V2022 in the original RFC and my view on that has not changed, but I do not think this change is representative of consensus. ^Clyde!_Franklin! 21:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
112. Strongest support Waste of space. More button clicks to perform the same actions.Lots of mobile influence in desktop(it is bad and should be separated). So revert it back. Wikipedia had the most efficient and slick design. Don't fix it if it ain't broken
113. Support The enormous margins and massive amounts of wasted space just look awful, especially once you start getting to 2k or 4k resolutions, and the moving table of contents, while a nice idea, is super poorly implemented in its current state. This design seems like it was made by a group of people exclusively running on 720p monitors who never thought to check how it looked at any other screen size. KirbychuHRD2 (talk) 21:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
114. Support I remember when Monobook was the default skin, and Vector 2010 was an improvement. This is not. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
115. Support Hadn't seen the change until I saw people on another website I frequent complaining about the new look. How the RfC on its introduction was closed as consensus in favour when there were more opposers than supporters is beyond me... Number 57 22:00, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Number 57, because the closers didn't simply count !votes? — Qwerfjkltalk 22:10, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Or rather because they just ignored the opposers? Tvx1 22:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     WP:VINE very explicitly states that majority vote should at least be requirement for UI changes; such as this and the text width issue (in which the latter no vote was taken). The closers should have simply counted the votes, and then check if the support arguments had any merit. Transcleanupgal (talk) 18:31, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     An essay. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     so? Transcleanupgal (talk) 21:04, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Essays are neither policies nor guidelines, and are written as advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors, as stated in {{essay}}. It's something to consider, but by no means is it mandated. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     yes, i know, it's just that @Qwerfjkl replied to me not only stating a list as policy, but getting the criteria for something to be on that list wrong and is being a massive hypocrite. Transcleanupgal (talk) 00:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Transcleanupgal, I wasn't suggesting that WP:200 was a policy, rather that large numbers of editors rarely participate in discussions. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     don't game the system. that's not what you did, period. Transcleanupgal (talk) 20:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Transcleanupgal, please AGF. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:12, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

116. Support Old is seriously better! Editorkamran (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
117. Support. I'm here for information density. The users who didn't like the line length could always shrink the window. This is universal and easily achieved; the corresponding method does not exist in reverse for the new design. I've had to install GreaseMonkey and find a script to modify the URL--I'm embarrassed to say this took me a couple hours. Additionally, I will never be in favor of icons rather than text links on websites. They're less accessible to the vast majority of users.
     Furthermore, given how awkward the handling of this has been, I'd support a vote of no-confidence for the decision-makers involved in the rollout. I found it to be a deeply unpleasant surprise, and difficult to find information on. They've forfeited any future donations from me until the people involved are fired. 2601:645:0:41C0:D1A0:EB6A:A0C7:18BD (talk) 22:14, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Comment moved. ~ HAL333 00:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

118. Support the decision to change was done compleatly behind the average wikiipedia reader, the only way you could have found that discussion was if you actively searched for it or were part of the implementation, in other words; the original discussion should be Moot per WP:POLSILENCE Transcleanupgal (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Transcleanupgal, WP:200. There were enough editors. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     wp:200 states that there needs to be 200 support votes, note 200 total votes, not only did neither the support nor oppose get nearly enough votes, the oppose actually got more votes. so yes, it would be Moot. Transcleanupgal (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

119. Support. I think there is case to be made for a fresh UI and design. However, currently we have a hodge-podge of screens. Have detailed out some of my notes here [[3]]. Need these to be fixed at the minimum before the roll-out. Ktin (talk) 23:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
120. Support I made an account for the sole reason of changing my skin back. I have not spoken to anyone who supports this change. I have overheard complaints in real life about the new skin. The idea that a small subset of the most active users, who did not reach a clear consensus in favor of this change, can be used to justify this change is absurd. Reading back through the previous RFCs, the design team did not meaningfully take community feedback into account, particularly as it regards fixed-width content. This change should be reverted and changes should be made to the RFC process to ensure this can't happen again. Fwint (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
121. Strongest support New UI is annoying, & seems to assume everyone's on a smartphone. There are a lot of assumptions, in fact; the process seems to have been largely internal, with a lot of confusion as to why more average Wikipedia users didn't join the RFC. Most users don't even make accounts, & their thoughts seem to have been totally ignored. A bad redesign can kill a site, & a stubborn desire to fiddle with stylesheets is not a good reason to risk the whole enterprise. Why not simply deploy this new UI as a "fixed-width mode" or something? See if people adopt it that way. Anything other than a sudden forced change, which users of every site universally hate. It is always a negative user experience, & it has been negative for all the no-account users I've spoken to. In summary, the change needs to account for casual users before it's finalized, & needs to be rolled out in a more thoughtful, consensus-minded way. WizWorldLIVE (talk) 00:19, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
122. Support I created an account and am fumbling through page edits just to express my strong dislike of the new layout. It is way, way too narrow. Most desktop users view the site on widescreen monitors. There is way too much unused space. Keep the mobile version of the site on mobile devices. Let me use utilize my wide screen on Desktop. I'm seeing lots of arguments from people saying it's easy to just change back to Vector 2010 from the appearance menu, but the vast majority of users aren't logged in and can't do that without registering an account. I'm certainly not going to be bothered to log into my account every time i need to use Wikipedia on another computer. SteveBlanka (talk) 18:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
123. Strongest support The new UI is terrible. I've been using it for a week and I hate it. Low information density, stupid "mobile-like" design, and huge swaths of useless empty space, forcing users to scroll even for short articles. Fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.244.10 (talk) 01:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
124. Support, mainly because IPs don't have the luxury of going back to legacy Vector. I gave Vector 2022 my best shot for about a week, and was happy to return to the old skin; I can't help wondering if the WMF is thinking of trading the mobile site (which has issues, notably WP:TCHY) for Vector 2022. This is reminiscent of WP:VE#Limitations. Miniapolis 02:27, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
125. Support. Per all of the above, and with concerns about the WMF deploying skins with insufficient consensus. I do not see a consensus to deploy in the last RFC, and the way this one is trending, I do not see a consensus to deploy in this one. A proper consensus should be obtained for something this controversial. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:42, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Today's changes to vector-2022 have messed up the style of my user scripts that I fixed the other day. They have also added padding to each menu item, which doesn't look great in my opinion. They have also deleted padding between menus, which also doesn't look great in my opinion. It's a bit frustrating that the English Wikipedia has turned into a vector-2022 sandbox. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Suggestions for the closer: 1) Try to avoid hypothesizing what consensus will be in the future, and focus on what consensus is now. I feel that this mistake was made in the close of the first Vector 2022 RFC. 2) Even if there is policy prohibiting the wikis from making coding and technical decisions, it is still acceptable to find consensus to ask the WMF to roll back Vector 2022. Thanks in advance for closing this. Good luck. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

126. Support - the biggest issue in my mind was the lack of consensus (or even a plurality) before implementing. And also a lack of communication about it. Personally I saw no banner advising of the implementation time. When it was implemented, I was editing in realtime, and there was no banner indicating that it had changed (yes, there was one later on). The RFC noted that certain improvements needed to be made before implementation. I'm confused why the "Background" section above says that these WERE implemented, as that's not the impression I got. Either in terms of width, or the language improvements. What was promised needs to be done. I also feel that those who actually did the change, without consensus, should have their permissions on the English Wikipedia restricted. Nfitz (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
127. Support - The answer to this question is obvious. And that answer is yes. The new skin is clearly not designed for what would be considered the primary use case: a desktop computer using a landscape monitor. Having to login to switch skins through preferences is annoying. Deadgye (talk) 04:01, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
128. Support. Just for starters the whitespace is an abomination and makes reading and navigating the website objectively worse on a desktop. I read through the RFC and some of various supporting talk pages and it was interesting to me to see that, although the WMF people generally made a big show of this being a change to the desktop site only and having nothing to do with the mobile site, Card Zero's !vote above pointed out the WMF comment "While building the skin, we also considered bringing it closer in visual design to the mobile site, so that people reading on mobile can still recognize Wikipedia in its desktop form as well. We also aimed to reduce code for skins overall so that it's easier in the future to build features and adapt them across both desktop and mobile skins". What is good for the mobile reader is often not what is good for the dektop reader and trying to make them similar is a recipe for disaster. Surely the WMF gets enough money each year through their relentless advertising that they can develop skins that suit mobile and desktop separately rather than needing to homogonise them. For whatever it's worth I did support the change from monobook to vector at the time so I don't think I am some luddite who just hates change. 2403:5802:19ED:0:21C1:6CBF:2E59:864 (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
129. Support The new design is truly abysmal and dysfunctional for a modern website's UI. I'm not opposed to new default displays, but it must reflect buy-in from the community. Both on a substantive and procedural basis, the new design should be rolled-back. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
130. Support. I hope I did this right as I've only been a logged out user until now. When talking about the "Wikipedia community", there seems to be a sole focus on editors. Part of the Wikipedia community also includes logged out users, aka the largest share of Wikipedia. There was no notice to logged out users who were happy with the old design or any real attempt to reach out to logged out users about input for this upcoming change (banners, etc.); Wikipedia gets billions of pageviews a month and the if there were real problems with the layout from a reader's point of view they would have organically come about already. Instead, I woke up to a new design that looks plain bad; I honestly thought I was on mobile for ~10 minutes until I googled the problem and learned it was in fact a redesign. --Newresdesignisdumb420! (talk) 06:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
131. Strong support - new skin is totally unworkable in viewing mode. Don't know what it would be like in editing mode as I got out as quickly as possible, but based of viewing mode it would be a nightmare. Mjroots (talk) 07:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
132. Support I do not understand the modern trend of adding white space to webpages, and this design is particularly egregious in that regard. Adopting a new design is fine, I am not married to the 2010 layout, but this one appears disliked by editors and readers alike. Undo. wxtrackercody (talk · contributions) 07:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
133. Support. I'm just a user, not an editor, but I'll tell you guys what I told the wikimedia volunteer email: this new site redesign is terrible. Particularly egregious is the bit where it assumes my desktop computer with a full-width monitor is a mobile phone, as though we're moving back in time to a previous and worse era of web design. table of contents on the left I could get used to, but having to click a button to tell your website I would like it to use more than a third of the screen in 2023 is just frankly embarrassing. 2601:645:8200:FF50:0:0:0:EC5F (talk) 08:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
134. Support This new design is a downgrade. It's baffling this has been set to default and unchangeably forced to logged-out users. Ew. — DVRTed (Talk)
135. Support This is horrible. At a minimum allow logged out users to opt out. 111.220.98.160 (talk) 09:32, 22 January 2023 (UTC).[reply]
136. Support I don't much care for all the wasted space left and right when rendered on my computer monitor. There is a way to override when logged out (i.e append ?useskin=vector to the url) but this doesn't propagate when clicking links. Should be easily be fixable IMO, so please do that. 90.231.239.98 (talk) 10:20, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
137. Support I've read this site almost daily for at least 15 years. I've learned so much from it since, especially from the 'random article' link, and still was - until Wednesday. I remember the old default skin, Monobook, which I always thought had a quirky but tasteful photo of a crumpled white bedsheet as a background, and it changing to the Vector 2010 with a light gray margin that I thought was somewhat generic but still unique and appealing. I didn't care about that change because it was the only real change I noticed and it didn't affect my experience. Despite what many have said in the many parallel ongoing conversations on this site about it looking outdated or being obsolete, I thought it was far and away the best-designed major site on the internet - an example in function over frills and timelessness over trend-following, compared to websites that seem to get overhauled every couple of years that replace self-evident links with weird hieroglyphic buttons, require more and more scrolling, and make more and more space for ads. I'd argue the design kept up with the times, especially compared to Craigslist, which looks very firmly rooted in 2002. As an IP user, I had absolutely no clue this new default skin was planned, and thought my browser was buggy when I first saw it, particularly because pages were being updated to the new skin one-by-one, and I was coming across 'normal' and 'buggy' ones at random. Then I discovered it was a feature, not a bug. I've already said why I liked the previous default skin(s), and this redesign hit like a gut punch. I have to describe the new skin (Vector 2022) as sterile, like an operating room - it's not comfortable to look at, the 'random article' button is hidden behind a hieroglyphic, it takes much more scrolling to read an article, and some articles just look like the layout was wrecked by the skin. It also seems like the black text is somehow brighter and harder to read. I found myself going from being on Wikipedia for hours at a time to a minute at a time until I found a browser extention that would add "?useskin=vector" to every URL every time I clicked a WP link. I have to say that all of this discussion - especially from all the people whose arguments against this request boil down to 'suck it up and get over it' - really puts me off coming back. Why should I patronize a website whose maintainers are themselves patronizing to their readers? It's not exactly welcoming, which is what I would think an online encyclopedia that encourages its readers to become its writers would want to be. --67.6.158.84 (talk) 10:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     This is completely irrelevant to the substance of what you wrote, but the background image is a book, not a bedsheet — hence the name "MonoBook". —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 03:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

138. Support Reading articles on a laptop logged-out (i.e. in the normal way) is more difficult – my eyes are distracted by the fact that the text doesn’t start until almost one-third of the way across the page. And it’s weird that there is no visible tab to use to log in. The new skin should be an option – readers and IP editors should be asked if they want to opt-in. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
139. Support. Unfortunately any perceived improvements do not matter a jot when the basic reading/editing experience is fundamentally compromised by what feels like 30-year old design methodology focussing exclusively on small, low-res displays (and simply accepting the resultant mass of dead space on larger, higher resolution displays), that should have long since been consigned to history. This lunacy should not have been inflicted on everyone by default with arrogant and almost total disregard for any and all negative feedback. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
140. Support: the new version looks awful. If the previous version is not broken, why change it, and especially for this? The 2022 version is not an improvement at all, it is a downgrade. I know bad, pseudo-clean website designs are a trend, but that does not mean I have to accept it. Veverve (talk) 12:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
141. Strong support, and I don't use "strong" lightly. The number of IPs and new accounts indicating their displeasure above (and that's just those who managed to find this RfC) indicate how poorly Vector 2022 works for casual readers. Compacted text, large swaths of whitespace, more difficult navigation - this is not an improvement. Many of the opposes below seem to fall into the "it's time for a change" category, but change for the sake of change alone is rarely a good thing. This is not an e-commerce or social media site; it's an encyclopedia. Readers come here for the article content, not for what some might call cutting-edge web design. For editors it can sometimes be easy to lose sight of the fact that these articles are written for Wikipedia readers, not other editors. Maximizing usability for readers is paramount, so the default skin for someone not logged in should not be Vector 2022. --Sable232 (talk) 15:19, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     What about those who actually like Vector 2022? To my knowledge if you dislike something enough you will eventually find somewhere to express your displeasure. But for readers who either don't care or like the new design, how are we supposed to know exactly how many of them there are? 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 15:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @0xDeadbeef: I think that they are well represented in the "oppose" category and by the small minority of appreciative comments left on pages like this one. Let me highlight an excerpt from Stable232's comment: "Many of the opposes below seem to fall into the "it's time for a change" category, but change for the sake of change alone is rarely a good thing. This is not an e-commerce or social media site; it's an encyclopedia. Readers come here for the article content, not for what some might call cutting-edge web design." Applause! The same as I think: there seems to be more attention on the "user's experience" than on the contents of the encyclopedia, while a great number of articles are in a wretched state. Æo (talk) 15:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I was merely pointing out the fact that people who hate the new design and desperately want the old design back will have enough motivation to find this page and others. Wikipedia editors are <0.01% of our readership, so even if a majority of readers actually like the new design, we would not know because people who like the new design would not care about this enough to find this page to express support. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 15:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That's why there have been some thoughts about publicising this page to casual IP readers (#Publicizing this RfC). Many of them have actually found this RfC or other talk pages and have expressed their views, and most of them have been negative. Regarding the segment of readers who "do not care" whether the interface is V2010 or V2022, I think that their view (which, given that they "do not care", is not an "opinion", i.e. a choice, between "options") is ostensibly irrelevant, and they probably do not even care whether Wikipedia exists or not. Æo (talk) 16:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

142. Strong support. This mobilification of desktop sites is a plague on the Web. I'm not very active here any more (much more of a reader than a contributor these days) and as a reader this change is awful. Ignatzmice•talk 15:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
143. Extremely strong support this is the Wikipedia equivalent of New Coke and is an unnecessary inconvenience to logged-out users and readers. Dronebogus (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
144. Support. The old skin was fine, the new one is just... weird. —scs (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
145. Strong support The whole point of responsive layout is that the user determines the width of the screen, not the developers. The other alterations seem unneccesary and unhelpful.John Talbut (talk) 17:28, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
146. Support Partly because the search field is not immediately usable. --Bensin (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
147. Strong Support The new skin is harder to use than the old one. It makes the text harder to read, for example, and generates wasted space on the sides of the page. Maybe we can make a better skin someday, but the 2022 one is actually worse than what it's replacing and shouldn't be used. Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds 17:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
148. Support There is too much whitespace and it is harder to navigate with Vector 2022. Kay2370 (talk) 19:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
149. Support There's too much whitespace, and it's actually harder to read now. I do not like how the Foundation imposed it upon the community. kulupu ko, many and one (talk) 20:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
150. Support For all the reasons already stated, especially white space, missing menu, and inconvenience of having to hit several buttons just to login. Unless we're anticipating a return to 13" square monitors there is absolutely no need for this. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
151. Strong support The new skin is a nightmare both aesthetically and from a usability point of view - it is driving serious contributors as well as readers away from the project. Forcing it on all users by default is rude and shows ignorance and incompetence. Whoever is responsible for this decision at the WMF should be removed from power - donation money should be spent on running the servers, fixing bugs and implementing actually needed core functionality the community has asked for for decades, not on things not needed like the Visual Editor or this new skin. The old Vector skin should be made the default again not only in the English Wikipedia but also in all other Wikipedias unless the users have explicitly opted in to the new skin (having a preferences setting to opt out is not enough). --Matthiaspaul (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     No need to make an ad hominem response directed at the person who introduced the skin itself. (And not to get too off-topic, but Visual Editor makes editing less daunting for new users, and more editors is something the project desperately needs). DecafPotato (talk) 23:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

152. Support: This change was completely unnecessary, and the new layout is distracting and harder to read, especially because of the large amount of white space. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
153. Support: It looks like the majority of respondants to the original RFC were not in favor of the new skin as-is, but it seems that the closing statement assumed that their concerns would be addressed. They were not. But ignoring the old RFC and looking at it fresh, there are still a lot of complaints that, unless they can be addressed instantly, should be grounds for a roll-back. The biggest concerns I'd like to point out are that the graphical buttons are not as obvious as they could be. (And they're not really saving space, because the whitespace where the old links would be is still unused.) And the dificulties with full-width mode. I realize that research has shown that narrow lines can be better for long-form reading, but It's my understanding that research has also shown that people don't read Wikipedia like that. They glance around quickly for the fact they're looking for. (I know I usually do.) The toggle for full-width is kind of hidden in my judgement, not really obvious iconography wise, and has a frustrating, seemingly broken behavior for non-logged in users. (I realize that fixing that last would require extra effort that can only be done by the Foundation's programmers, but ... ok, so what?) ApLundell (talk) 21:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
154. Support: The change is not an improvement, and despite what was stated the research did not show the limited width is better. I have read the papers linked at https://www.mediawiki.orghttps://demo.azizisearch.com/lite/wikipedia/page/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features/Limiting_content_width but they are twenty years old and do not consider modern wide-screen high-definiton monitors. 80.43.159.95 (talk) 22:01, 22 January 2023 (UTC) 22:00 January 2023 UTC[reply]
155. Extremely strong support The old style Wikipedia was much easier to use and to edit. I am not sure what was wrong with it, and wish to say "If it's not broken, don't fix it." YTKJ (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     FYI, "extremely strong support" tends to be functionally equal to just "support". DecafPotato (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Maybe read that article of TechCrunch and you'll notice the changes a bit better. Its really much more efficient for editors. Then here the developers have also their say on their aims. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That article would be relevant if the site actually looked like the screenshots the article includes. It does not. On my screen, it looks like this: https://postimg.cc/3ddyCXDj, which is significantly different than the old layout. I'm starting to wonder if those who claim the new layout is not that different are only using lower-res displays and haven't actually seen the problem. I measured the whitespace on my monitor earlier today. There's a solid 9 inches of whitespace to the left of the content, another 8.5 inches of whitespace on the right, and measly 6 inches of actual content in the middle. The content quite literally takes up less than a third of my browser window. That's on a 27" 3840x2160 monitor using 100% OS-level scaling and 100% browser scaling. It's not much better at 125% OS-level scaling. People have also brought up comparisons to other sites using similar design elements, but I checked a lot of the ones mentioned by others, and even those other sites have their UI elements stretch out to fill the entire window even if article content does not. In that regard, Vector 2022 doesn't even follow the design examples of the sites other people are referencing. Trynn (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Welcome to Wikipedia Trynn! I believe you have an individual preference. Your username, bell and notifications are above the white space, while my username, bell and notifications are all above the text and the whitespace begins at the Watchlist. Just ask for help at the talk page. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

156. Support On a wide desktop monitor the amount of whitespace is baffling and the exact opposite of what I'd expect a website to do with available "real estate". Cpl Syx ^[talk] 23:05, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
157. Strong Support: I specifically made an account again for this, having lost my old login somewhere along switching emails, because this is the worst design 'improvement' I've seen in quite a few years. It is unpleasant to be unable to see where the sidebar ends and the page starts, and the overwhelming whiteness of the design made pages more difficult to read. It's very much a mobile-centric design on a website I only ever use on desktop, and I'm pretty sure there's already a mobile version. Heavily indented sections, like this page for example, are a nightmare to parse without a clear border like the old design. The non-persistence of having to click on a button to open the menu on the side with every single page change if not logged in is frustrating too. No longer having an easy overview of languages on the left (without having to click on it, again) is a negative too. I personally also hate the move table of contents, specifically how it remains in sight while you scroll, though I can see why some would like it. SiderealMask (talk) 01:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
158. Strong Support: The only way I've found to disable this new UI is a Chrome extension (to add "useskin=vector" to all pages) and that is frankly ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.26.93 (talk) 23:04, January 22, 2023 (UTC)
159. Strong Support. The community rejected this before, and the idea that it's being foisted upon us anyway is outrageous. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:05, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
160. Support for a multitude of reasons. I rarely edit these days and as such rarely log in, but this new skin is so terrible that I have to log into to even do so much as to browse the site effectively.
     1) Whitespace-heavy skin designs work for mobile users because it can be difficult to click on the correct links when there are too many in close proximity. But for desktop users the added whitespace just creates unnecessary scrolling.
     2) The new design clashes visually with established templates, the standard editing interface, and the like: any change to the default skin should consider not just what the new skin looks like in a vacuum, but also how it meshes with the current content of the website. And that was clearly not considered at all in the design of this skin.
     3) When hiding the table of contents there appears to be no way to get it back short of refreshing the page, at least that I can find. This is a horrible design choice for what should be obvious reasons, and the fact that the skin was rolled out this way speaks volumes about how it wasn't ready for deployment.
     4) When I use the search box, then move my mouse cursor, and then type something in, I get unexpected behavior: instead of searching for exactly what I typed in, I instead search for the page in the search results that my mouse cursor happened to be hovering over. This is clearly not what the majority of people typing a term in the search box would expect or intend to do, and again the fact that the skin was rolled out with this "feature" speaks to its unsuitability for use.
     I could talk about other issues as well, but most of what I would say has already been addressed above. Suffice to say, this skin clearly needs more work before becoming the default. That's not to say that there aren't positive aspects to the new skin: the more prominent search bar is a welcome change, as are the page previews that occur during a search. But the issues presented above are too great to make up for these small improvements. ST11 (t • c) 04:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Holy crap, you're right about hiding the contents. How did I not realize this until now... and why did the WMF think this was acceptable to deploy onto a top-20 website? —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 04:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Hang on, I figured it out... it's the !!! button that shows up next to the article title. But once again, the skin relies on hieroglyphics to communicate important features, when text would've made much more sense. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 04:19, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Eh, I think it's a fairly common icon with a fairly common use. I would prefer if it gave a tooltip when you hover over it, though. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 04:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

161. Support due to the following problems with Vector 2022 that the WMF has showed no signs of interest in fixing:
     • Excessive whitespace at the top — The "Log In" button is hidden behind a … button, which makes things more inconvenient than they were before for no clear reason. I mean, look at the official screenshot — there's plenty of space to make the login button be one click away.
     • Excessive whitespace in the contents sidebar. Like, they could easily cut the CSS margins on the contents by half and it would result in less unnecessary scrolling.
     • The hamburger menu. You can't say with a straight face that this is a desktop-first redesign then proceed to hide content behind a ≡ button by default. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 04:52, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Also, one more thing: I've tried to read pages in the new skin a couple times and it bugged me that there's no way to expand all the options in the contents at once. So now I think we should just put the table of contents where it was before.

     If that and the first two things in my original comment got fixed, I might move to neutral. The hamburger menu is probably just a Me Problem and I'm willing to compromise on that.

     Also if this RfC gets an incorrect close or the WMF otherwise defies the consensus here, we should at least come to a community consensus on a new name for this skin, because as others have said, it's a more substantial change from Vector than MonoBook->Vector was. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 05:44, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

162. Support per pythoncoder. starship.paint (exalt) 06:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
163. Support: As an avid reader and occasional editor and author with many interests, I don't like that many important links are hidden by the new skin, in particular the login field. What once was a single-click process, needs two clicks and a pull now. It's a small thing, but it is inconvenient nevertheless. I also don't like the extent of the white space, and most importantly (as missing information is often found in other versions), I miss the one-click language links. Hence I find that the previous default skin was much better, but Monobook is still superior to that since all operational controls are on the same side of the screen. But I also see that the new skin may have some advantages for users of mobile devices, restricted as they are in screen size. Then again, as a desktop user I find these characteristics detrimental, and I'd rather have all operation controls visible from the start. Hence I propose a compromise: Let the browser detect the operating system. If it is a mobile one, tell it to display the new skin (or another that is geared towards mini-screens). If it is a desktop one, use something like Monobook, or another of the classic skins, with all bells and whistles on. Don't just cater for one side. --Schlosser67 (talk) 07:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     There's already a mobile skin and its already automatically shown on mobile operating systems. Vector 2022 was designed for desktops. – Joe (talk) 08:04, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Was it really meant for desktops? It does not look the part. And here I thought the developers wanted to help users with small screens, which I could have understood. That would mean that the new skin is not good for anything. Pity about the work people have wasted on it, their time would have been better spent on content than on appearance. Hence, upgrade to strong support. --Schlosser67 (talk) 11:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

164. Support: the new Vector skin has some good points but the iconographic "mystery meat navigation" at the top suffers from some serious usability deficiencies that make it harder to use and discriminate against users with certain disabilities. These issues are easily rectified but the interface development don't seem to be interested in taking user feedback into account. Cnbrb (talk) 10:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
165. Strong support: I do not think this move adheres to the RfC close. Whitespace width is still an issue with menus and any page with tables/images; others have raised that IPs can't keep their preference [in fact, I just tested it and I can't find the toggle at all as an IP]; sticky header and menu behavior is confusing and buggy [on a non-16:9 desktop window the sidebar jolts the entire article down instead of sideways, on my tablet talk pages are unreadable thanks to buggy table of contents menus]). These and similar issues were raised in the RfC which was closed with a huge "if" regarding the resolution of these issues, and while I see some improvements in the article body width, it's a huge stretch to say that the community's concerns were all satisfactorily handled, as this entire page should explain. While I do not think Vector legacy is perfect and I would welcome a solid update, this particular update, by consensus of the last RfC, is not it. Blue Edits (talk) 11:02, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
166. Strong support: This skin is garbage, it's got more blank white space than a ream of fresh copy paper. It sucks ass. Get rid of it, the people who introduced it and the people who designed this monstrosity. It's extremely clear to me that the the full impact of this change was hidden from the wider community in order to force it through regardless of many of the concerns listed above that were advised before. The change wasn't even close to a clear consensus, but it was forced through on the community, the backlash is massive. It's quite clear that it should be immediately reverted. Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
167. Support as per all the above. For those who say it is a resistance to change, it is not, but is a resistance to idiocracy.Clntkee (talk) 12:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
168. Strong support: A few days ago, I went to look up something on Wikipedia, only to find that its design had, shall we say, uglified. I don't know who complained about the old design, which had nothing wrong with it, but they are definitely in a very small minority. I'm glad to see that many agree with me, and I ask that Wikipedia go back to the old design. 98.20.129.84 (talk) 12:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
169. As pointed out by some people above, this design has an aesthetically bad look — too much white space, which can be perceived as trying to unify mobile and desktop designs. Secondly, as per all the above, WMF completely ignored community consensus and immediately implemented the change (which kind of feels like a throwback to WP:FRAM). Therefore I support a rollback to the old design. Summer ^talk 12:30, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
170. Support. I rarely see an instance where a big websites changes a classic design and it goes down well with the community. It usually feels like trying to fix what's not broken, and something no one asked for. Changing everyone's UI (rather than just giving them an extra option) is rather presumptuous. Please let this be a lesson for future redesigns to consult the community first, or to just add it to the existing list of skins without changing the default. — Czello 15:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
171. Support. The legacy Vector looks simpler and more elegant, the Vector 2022 looks clunkier. I do like the table of contents to "follow" the reading, but the simpler and wider legacy Vector is better for me. The fact that IP editors can't change that is another problem. A quick fix to this matter is to allow changes to all users - with account or without account. Another important point is that this change is forced on us, and I would never support such changes, no matter how "benevolent" it might be. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 15:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
172. Support and in strong terms at that. The redesign attempts to fix what isn't broken. The whitespace and the squeezing of text are just two reasons out of many. For example, I formatted my userpage for the 2010 skin, and because the text has been pushed into the middle the layout has suffered as a result. That to me is enough of a reason. I also think removing section numbering is a huge error, and pushing it into the side and making it so you cannot see all of it at once makes it measurably worse. The only positive thing I could say about it is widening the searchbar along the top. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
173. Strong support The single worst site-wide change I've seen during my 17 years here. The amount of white space this creates is beyond ridiculous. And most of the other changes are clearly retrograde also. mgiganteus1 (talk) 18:02, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
174. Support. Not sure if I'm doing this correctly, as I made an account to restore my ability to use the old wikipedia style so I'm new to this whole thing. SanJacintoPeak (talk) 18:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
175. Support, per above. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
176. Support rolling back to 2010, for as long as IPs are unable to change skins without signing up and because of the badgering as Fram has pointed out. Decreasing the page width so that skimming eyes on widescreen monitors don't have to travel too far is about the only noticable improvement over the old skin, but that can be easily retrofitted for v2010. Everything else, including the hamburger hell UI, is tedious for desktop browsing and not well supported by older web browsers (one of the major benefits of Wikipedia over other JS/complex-CSS-heavy sites: you could still comfortably read articles on "obsolete" hardware without much lag or broken rendering). DigitalIceAge (talk) 19:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
177. Strong Support I immediately reverted to Vector 2010 because I hated the new skin so much. I don't like guessing at what a symbol means and I like being able to click on plaintext that says Contributions and Watchlist. Abzeronow (talk) 19:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
178. Support As mostly a reader and not an editor I was pretty surprised (not in a good way) by the new look. I was looking into wether there was a CSS error on my end but noticed it as deliberate. Even after a period of trying to have the new look grow on me I just don't understand the reasoning for the change. A simple shrink expand button for Vector 2010 would have been much better. Without an easy way for logged out users to opt out I would like to see this change rolled back on all wikis. Or leave the decision to the admins of every language. Real Joe Cool (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
179. Strongest possible Support The new design is clunky, awkward, hides tools and options, makes the dealing with the ToC a chore, switching languages more cumbersome... (the original full list of languages, on the left, was best) It takes more time and effort, to do anything or get any information. Ones ability to get an overview of things, or to navigate, is clearly diminished. Functionality, practicality and efficiency is severely hampered. Not because it is an unfamiliar set-up, but because it is an inherently, objectively, and significantly, less functional/practical/efficient design. (and this is true of most "upgraded"/"updated"/"modern" website designs, from about the 2010's onward ...which are far from unfamiliar, by now) The new design makes the desktop and mobile designs closer ...but I have yet to see, any reasonable argument (or any argument whatsoever), for why that would be a good thing. Why one should make the desktop version, be closer to a design that has to be severely limited, by the severely limited abilities of mobiles. (most notably, their minimal and extremely clumsy and imprecise touchscreens)--155.4.221.27 (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I agree. I browse Wikipedia on both desktop and mobile, but I only use desktop to contribute, because it is impossible to do serious editing on the mobile version; I use the mobile version only for superficial and quick reading and information-search. Æo (talk) 21:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     ...and mobile is clearly worse, for superficial and quick reading and information-search, as well, other than specifically on a smartphone. (due to the many and severe limitations, of smartphones) 155.4.221.27 (talk) 14:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

180. Support (edit conflict) As someone who prefers Vector 2022, the backlash is very clear and features that many editors & readers are concerned with should be addressed and fixed as necessary (e.g. random white spaces) before rolling out V22 again. Making the skin optional is also another option. --Harobouri • 🎢 • 🏗️ (he/him) 21:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
181. Support for all the reasons stated above. The amount of blank space it's just ridiculous to me. Tintero21 (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
182. Support per many above. While updating the look of many websites is now popular and WMF acted in good faith, setting Vector 2022 as default skin is likely a mistake. The default skin should be the one most familiar and habitual, with Vector 2022 being optional. Brandmeister^talk 23:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
183. Support: this existential change has not been communicated globally, and the en-WP affects each and all language versions and projects (commons etc). Was there even a banner to notify people this was coming up? I can only imagine the issue was pinned in the basement admin bathroom's talk page, just Guide-to-the-Galaxy-style. Well, I have been actively avoiding the fr-WP and the pt-WP for years already, because they had this skin activated for everyone and I had no clue on how to switch it back. Clicking on a fr-interwiki link meant I had to spend extra time to find my way back to the other languages. I don't care at all about all the other horrible design choices of the new design (like rendering half my screen totally empty, and using giant fonts, making featured articles or lists unreadable) ... no, I can tweak that. But what I desperately Need: Interwiki Links, and to have them readily accessible at first glance. These *#ß%É designers HID THEM! Behind a button! You have to endlessly navigate because they are not even sorted by language code anymore but by popularity or whatever!
     Seriously, the sidebar interwiki-links are the most important feature of a multi-language global encyclopedia, and like it or not, the en-WP is the hub connecting all languages. Or... it was. Now, users are actively discouraged of finding information in other languages, thanks to badly designed menus. I know what I'm talking: the French and Portuguese wikis have moved the interwiki-button around several times, and I essentially stopped checking there for info. This has become a SHELL GAME. If accessible interwiki links don't get re-introduced, then goodbye multi-language encyclopaedia. --Enyavar (talk) 23:40, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
184. Support: Following on the December 2022 banners, yet another disconnect between editors and WMF, with readers caught in the crossfire. While I personally like the skin, the WMF pushed ahead even with significant improvements yet to arrive. Sungodtemple (talk • contribs) 03:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
185. Support This is a Windows 8-level miscalculation. While this skin does make the desktop and mobile versions more similar, 155.4 raises good points about whether that's something we should want in the first place. What works on a smartphone screen or tablet is not necessarily what will work best on a PC. The new layout is not just an eyesore, it hampers desktop functionality.LM2000 (talk) 04:29, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
186. Very Passionate Support. Not to suggest that someone was supposed to inform me of this, but I feel like I really missed the boat in opposing this format ever being rolled out. It's a nightmare to navigate and looks like something out of the 90s. I think the biggest issue here though is the fact that non-member readers (who I'd have to imagine make the vast majority of this site's readers) were woefully underconsidered, especially given they more or less have no choice to use this new format (and even if they make accounts may not be aware of the appearance setting or what it means). I appreciate those who are working to improve this site, but we need to have the whole format sent back to the drawing board. DarkSide830 (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
187. Weak support I had been using Vector 2022 since last year. The immediate first look for me was that it compressed a large quantity of text, especially for users with smaller monitors and resolutions. This unnecessary compression leaves issues for editing, especially in tables and lists due to how these tables present differently. With this implementation, many tables are now shown in an awkward manner, where text is compressed and elongated. The intention of this design is not at fault, but the lack of consideration of how it impacts different users (on the technical side) is what that makes this change controversial. gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 07:55, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
188. Support Yet another desktop redesign trying to make it look like a mobile version even though a mobile version already exists. Vector 2022 is confusing, buggy, and has way too much wasted space. Greyhound 84 (talk) 08:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
189. Support rollback. This vector looks unready. I think it was a mistake to make it default while in experimental phase. More thoughts on improving first, before deployment. Sarri.greek (talk) 08:09, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
190. Support rollback because the redesign fails at making Wikipedia easier to use than the previous skin. In addition, this RfC needs to be shared more widely because I'd wager most editors still haven't seen that they can comment on this. Perhaps WMF should do an editor poll or vote instead of a RfC most people won't see.--SouthernNights (talk) 13:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
191. Support as the new version is completely unfriendly and makes usability difficult. Vector 2010 was a natural, simple successor to Monobook. This one wasn't to Vector 2010. Bedivere (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
192. Support I think the foundation have their approach entirely backward. They've made the change and are waiting to see how many people hate it enough to revert back to the previous skin; this is an incredibly low bar for classing the change as a 'good idea.' I propose that they revert the default to the previous design, advertise the new skin, and measure what proportion of people like it enough to change to the 'new' skin voluntarily JeffUK 13:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @JeffUK: Notice that this Question #2 is specifically about the width problem. Was your vote/comment intended for the general RfC (above) about the restoration of Vector 2010 as the default interface? Æo (talk) 14:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Ack, it was. I blame the new layout! Thanks. JeffUK 15:08, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Comment moved to the correct subsection.--Æo (talk) 15:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Hey @JeffUK, thanks for taking the time to join this discussion. I hope it isn't inappropriate of me, as a staff member, to try and clarify one point here. We've been developing the skin with the help of many volunteers over the past 3 years, and have had several large Wikipedias (French, Hebrew, Persian, and others) as pilot partners. The opt-out rates we've seen on those pilot wikis have been extremely low. So, in many ways, we did exactly what you're recommending. Only once we were confident in the skin (due to acceptance among pilot wikis, and data) did we bring it to English. However, of course, the gradual developments on the pilot wikis was a big difference to the switchover we did on English. I wonder if we had introduced parts of the skin gradually, if that would have been easier on editors (as it seems to have been on the other wikis). Cheers, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

193. Support The new skin is a bug. It's a mobile layout moved mindlessly to the desktop. Vector 2022 does not use the space offered by large screens, hides interface elements and extends the time to access them by requiring additional clicks and mouse movements. The functional blocks of the page are not distinguished in any way, merging with each other. The new table of contents is collapsed by default, making it difficult to keep track of the content, and its width does not allow for comfortable placement of long titles. If someone wants to use the mobile view, they can always do so. If someone does not want to, he should not be forced to do so by authoritative decisions.The new skin is an example of all the evils of current design fashion. It puts a "modern", "clean" mobile-like look above usability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freja Draco (talk • contribs) 15:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
194. Support weak support with an asterisk: I appreciate some of the changes, but overall I feel it is worse. Especially please bring back the original Table of Contents (TOC) design (placed below the lead section). Having an additional copy of the TOC that is constantly visible on the left side of the page is fine as an extra feature, but not replacement of the long-standing design. Thank you. Al83tito (talk) 15:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Al83tito: I agree that the ToC is one of the foremost problems (see #Bring back the TOC), together with the limited width and the hidden toolbar, and I also agree that some other changes are good, especially the the new colour palette and the new horizontal Wikipedia/other WMF project logo. Æo (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

195. Support definitely. But also improve the old and the new skin. Steue (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
196. Support If any skin should be picked as a new default, it should be Timeless. V22 doesn't feel very thought out or even production-ready. MaterialWorks _(talk) 16:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Agreed. If any other skin is picked, it should be Timeless. Unfortunately, we'll probably never get any consensus for that. ‍ ‍ Helloheart ‍ ‍ 03:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

197. Support. I've been happily using Vector 2022 for several months and assumed that a finished version had been developed and rolled out. Apparently I was wrong: as of today a number of new, ugly and/or broken features have been introduced. Clearly an approach of "roll out first, finish the design later" has been chosen, rather than one that would indicate a modicum of professionalism or respect for readers or editors. This isn't sustainable and it harms the work we're trying to do. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Hey @Arms & Hearts, thanks for giving Vector 2022 a chance, and I'm sorry to hear that we've let you down recently. We're working hard to fix bugs, and make improvements to the skin. If you could elaborate on which features broke for you, and how they affected your workflows, that would be much appreciated. Thanks, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 01:55, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Apologies, AHollender, for the belated reply. The issues I recall experiencing on 24 January included extraneous whitespace at the tops of articles and icons appearing behind text in the right sidebar (the RSS icon, now apparently gone, and possibly also the "add interlanguage links" pencil). These seem to have been rectified but the two-sidebar version still looks to me like a work in progress and, for editing purposes, is much clunkier than both Vector 2010 and the earlier Vector 2022. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

198. Shouldn't have been changed, to begin with it. PS - Why are editors putting 'Support/Oppose' etc, in their posts? The survey already has 'support/oppose' sub-sections. GoodDay (talk) 17:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Perhaps to make their thoughts clearer, or because it's common practice, or because the posts here were not initially split between supports and opposes. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 17:51, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

199. Support Excessive amounts of blank space, bad readability, and other features pointed out above. Avilich (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
200. Support — The new design is just plain bad. I have seen many bad designs of websites but this is the first one that made me think there was something wrong with my browser. I don't oppose all change as a kneejerk thing and would be happy to see other options explored, but Vector 2020 is bad. Stratpod (talk) 18:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     that’s vector 2022 Dronebogus (talk) 20:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

201. Weak support. I get formatting errors on most pages (text lower down is bolded) and the new font colors are more difficult to see. I'm surprised actually that they meet the minimum contrast ratio specified by Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. DrKay (talk) 19:28, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I have actually been getting similar glitches even after I switched back to Vector 2010. Something global must have changed that is incompatible with the old skin, and it makes me concerned that 2010 may become difficult to technically support in the future. Jeremy Jeremus (talk) 20:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

202. Rolling back to Vector 2010 is actually a bad idea, because obviously the only reasonable thing to do is roll back to Monobook, but since that isn't going to happen, back to Vector 2010 is the lesser evil. JBW (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Another thought. I see that many comments object to imposing a mobile-like interface on desktop users, but seem to take it for granted that the mobile interface is fine for mobile users. Not so. For reading on a mobile device, the best thing to do by a long way is to select "Desktop", and avoid the well-intentioned but misconceived "mobile" interface. If you do that, Vector2010 is perfectly usable, and Mononbook absolutely fine. For editing on a mobile device, the same applies, except for "the best thing to do" substitute "the only reasonable thing to do". The mobile interface is appallingly badly designed for mobile devices, quite apart from the fact that it's even worse on a computer screen. JBW (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @JBW, perhaps V10 works well on your mobile device, but it was even worse than the mobile interface (MobileFrontend) for me. The sidebar covered half the screen. That's the main reason I've been using V22 for around a year. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Qwerfjkl: Well, actually I do almost all my editing on Monobook, and use Vector only occasionally, when I am editing from an alternative account for which I haven't bothered to change the settings, so perhaps the best I can say is that it's usable for occasional use like that. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I had more experience of it. JBW (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

203. Support So, I'm not an editor. I'm a reader. And I don't read Wikipedia for the articles. I read it for the discussions and I have been reading it for the discussions since the 2007.
     • The method by which Vector 22 was shoved down the throat of the community makes it evident that WMF does not understand how to work with a grassroots, volunteer-driven project such as Wikipedia. The way to have gone about it was to run a contest for a new design created by members of the community, submitting Vector 2022 as one viable option out of say, five. This would have made the community at least feel enfranchised and shown that WMF is willing to trust the volunteers who create and maintain enwp to understand how the project should be presented visually to the public. Instead, WMF bestowed it upon the community as an edict from on high, granting to the community only small adjustments rather than the ability to say "no, thanks, we're fine without this inaccurate depiction of our work."
     • The new design makes what should be a reliable and trustworthy archive of knowledge look like an inflated bimbo with too much makeup. It's unnecessary and undermines the respectability of the entire enterprise. Wikipedia's look should be a little stodgy. It should be dense. Vector 22 would belong just fine on Fandom but it does not belong on enwp.
     • A site does not add a ton of whitespace to their UI if they are not intending to fill that whitespace with ads. I am 100% expecting that WMF will cram their cash cow full of banner ads within the next 12 months. That is how low the level of trust has sunk, and I fully expect WMF is unaware of the extreme level of resentment and mistrust since they're all a bunch of corporate MBAs with no understanding of why an editor or reader buys into the Wikipedia mission and concept.
     • On my phone in desktop mode (the only viable mode) my options are either a) let a page take 30 seconds to load before the JS loads so I can hide the sidebar and get more than 4 columns of text on the screen, or b) disable JS entirely, which means I cannot hide the sidebar at all. There has to be a CSS-only method of hiding the sidebar, and until that is implemented at the very least the design should be rolled back. I use Firefox for Android. I can't install addons that let me force-redirect. I'm never going to register since I'm just a reader. Let me set my skin of choice so I can actually read. 108.250.219.137 (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Hey 108.250.219.137, thanks for taking the time to join the discussion and share your thoughts. I think you bring up some interesting questions, which I'd like to respond to.

     • Vector 2022 is largely inspired by community-developed features (such as the sidebar on Korean Wikipedia, the sticky header on Hebrew Wikipedia, Wikipedia.rehash, etc.), as well as Timeless, and Winter (the skin-that-almost-was). We aimed to take the best ideas that have been developed on local Wikis, work in some additional feature development (such as the new table of contents), and bring it all together into a cohesive interface. We've been actively working with over volunteers for the past 3 years. We've been grateful to have collaborated with over 2,000 volunteers so far on the development of Vector 2022. Seeing how caught off guard so many people are, I obviously feel like we let a huge number of people down on the communications front. I know it's probably hard to believe, but we tried pretty hard — multiple posts in the Village Pump, running banners, outreach on Discord, etc. — to include everyone in the process. I am sorry we didn't do better in this regard.
     • I understand where you're coming from regarding wanting the interface to be "stodgy" and "dense". I grew up with Vector and am very accustomed to it. To a certain degree it probably even defined my sense of what a reliable source of information should look like. However with Vector 2022 we're thinking about people all over the world, of all ages, who have a wide variety of different aesthetic associations. Things that look credible to us, look dated and untrustworthy to others.
     • As the lead designer on the project I can definitively say the only reason there is so much whitespace is because we limited the line-length of the text to comply with WCAG standards, and existing research. There is no plan to put ads of any kind on Wikipedia. Also to note, we don't see white/empty space as a problem in and of itself.
     • Since our team also works on the mobile website, I'm curious to better understand why as a reader you find desktop mode on mobile preferable? If you're willing to elaborate that would be awesome.

     I hope that information is helpful, and look forward to continuing the conversation. Cheers, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @AHollender (WMF): IP 108's comment about using the phone in desktop mode resonated with me, because that is what I do too. On the phone, one of the first things I do is to scroll to the bottom-most line (which is hard when pages are long) and seek out the "Desktop" link. I browse by Categories and I find them only when the UI is switched to desktop mode. I then scroll again to the bottom of the page and zoom in the Categories box, to continue. I don't know if there is a simpler way of getting to the categories in mobile mode, and maybe I have been using it the wrong way all the time. I'm never logged-in on the mobile though. Jay 💬 12:57, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I'll just chime in as well that I regularly use mobile in desktop mode. I wonder if there are usage statistics on how often that happens vs. people using desktop in mobile mode. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Jay, you can see categories in mobile, but it requires an account. It's under advanced mibile options (I think). — Qwerfjkltalk 00:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That is odd. What has categories got to do with being logged in? I certainly don't want to log in for browsing some content on the mobile. On the desktop, I'm logged in 100% of the time though. Jay 💬 09:10, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Another good example of a breaking change that should have not gotten out of review. The notion that site features are only for logged in users is community hostile. TheMissingMuse (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Jay, sorry, I got confused. Disregard that last comment.
     @TheMissingMuse, again, what is the breaking change you're referring to? — Qwerfjkltalk 19:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

204. Support: My support is primarily based on the accessibility issues being unresolved. This should have been a point of focus when implementing a new redesign. Hey man im josh (talk)
205. Support: There was insufficient discussion; a coupon of hundred divisively split editors is not a sufficient community discussion for something that affects thousands of editors, especially when it invalidates their editorial choices made over the past decade. Because the placement of the TOC and having all its levels visible has effects on image placement, infobox placement, and decisions about the outline of the article's headers and subheaders. Not having all subheaders available by default makes the TOC far less useful, no matter what anyone claims, because one cannot see at a glance what topics are covered. oknazevad (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
206. Support +1 for accessibility!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:8202:fbc0:312e:f28:84b5:626 (talk) 21:34, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
207. Support --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 21:43, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
208. Support - Doesn't seem to be ready. Nigej (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
209. Strong Support - I find myself clicking twice to go to many pages where I only had to click once previously. That alone makes navigating on the skin less productive, and more annoying. Not to mention the weird look and spacing. Gizza (talk • voy) 00:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
210. Strongly Support The pet projects of some insider clique shouldn't override general consensus. If Vector2020 is so great, make it an option people can enable, and let us retain the older version that actually used the screen space of a desktop monitor. Forcing readers to make an extra click to access the menu? Just why? LeperColony (talk) 01:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
211. Support: Been around for years, mostly edit Gnomishly, but occasionally create an article when I see the opportunity/have the time. Tend to stay out of RFCs and voting etc because I don't consider myself experienced enough to get involved. Had no idea this change was forthcoming, tried it, thought it looked hideous. Now I see there was no consensus?! Nah, change it back. Muchclag (talk) 01:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
212. Support the new skin is not an improvement. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
213. Support I heard of the previous RFC. The first thing I did when it changed was to discovered where the skins were in preferences and roll back the change. I am glad I am not an IP user. BeckyAnne(talk) 02:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
214. Strong Support The new theme is mobile styling for desktop, and as such is a bad UX by definition. I've been editing on wikipedia for 15 years, much of it logged out. Now I need to be logged in to even *use* the site. I do think improvements could be made to the previous style, but it is a practical style that serves the public well. There was no need to create such a radical redesign. I thought that the ToC had been *eliminated* until I finally changed the theme for my logged in usage. I saw that the redesign broke the sw.wikipedia as well. Has anyone done a broader survey of which other locales have been broken? TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
215. STRONG SUPPORT this is a hard fail. Accept defeat and revert. Thanks. LeperColony (talk) 04:07, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
216. Support new skin is not ready, and as many have pointed out, there are a lot of issues that make it less usable than the previous one. Also, the rollout was clearly done without support from the community --Ita140188 (talk) 08:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
217. STRONG SUPPORT Rollback to Vector 2010 skin, immediately. It is clean, text-based, no web gimmicks, and fully functional. This is key to the excellent cross-platform compatibilty of Wikipedia. The new skin's pop-ups, its vague, ambiguous, subjective icons (in place of explicit words), and other gimmickry, strip Wikipedia of its essential clarity, simplicity, reliability and convenience. For those infatuated with "new" for the sake of "new", offer an additional menu item (or, if need be, an icon), which allows selection of the newer (or an older) skin. But the new skin should NOT be forced on all users by default. The arrogance of such a contemptuous attitude is indefensible, and a blatant repudiation of WP:Consensus. ~ Penlite (talk) 12:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
218. Support. While the ability to select Vector 2010 as my default display preference rendered the implementation of the new Vector 2022 to merely a one-time annoyance to me, I was not prepared for the number of (non-editor) Wikipedia users who have approached me at school to ask me how they too could restore their display layout as well. This led to many questions as to why the change was made on English Wikipedia (despite an RfC with no consensus to support), the difference between the WMF and en:wp, and why IP users needed to make an account just to "fix the display problem". It is not just editors, but general readers that are not happy with this change. Loopy30 (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
219. Support. I need more time to evaluate Vector 2022, for now, I will edit on it to see how it works vs the legacy version. My general suggestion is to have all the tools except for the tools actually needed for editing to the left, while the tools for editing text should stay where they were, on the top, and the users should have freedom to adjust the width (from default LaTeX style to full-screen) and the skin they way they want. It would also make some sense to have at least some shades of gray and possibly colours to highlight the editing/ToC/tools/special links areas (where did these disappear?) from the text itself. So, there is much room for improvement but it's not awful and I don't think the changes should be hard to implement

     My main issue is with the forcing it on unlogged users, not advertising the discussion itself, deciding the discussion against the established rules for assessing consensus and not actually implementing feedback before unrolling the design. This shoving down the throat is unacceptable. There is a reason Wikipedia, for most things, relies on consensus to implement changes. This may lead to objectively suboptimal results but at least we know what we choose and bear full responsibility for it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:18, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

220. Support. I agree with many of the above that the new skin is not ready for implementation. I don't think that the layout and many of the design choices (menus hidden behind buttons, poor use of whitespace, etc) are conducive to reading and editing, despite perhaps being more elegant design. Function should be more important than style. I also don't appreciate the rollout without more consultation. I'm also unhappy with the lack of options made available for logged out editors, besides tech-y hacks there are no real options. Ultimately, this needs a lot more work and a lot more community guidance before it's ready to be forced upon us. Bestagon ⬡ 15:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
221. Support — I felt that the over emphasis of the table of contents, as a sticky menu of the page, is a waste of space and a visual annoyance, especially on tablets – where screen sizes may not be that big, but often uses a desktop sized viewport, making it exceptionally crowded. In my opinion, a more "welcoming" default interface, should be the one that fits small screens on desktop viewport sizes better, not the other way round. Another thing is, the all-round reduction in colour contrasts in the overall interface, makes it harder to focus. All in all, I am not against rethinking of how the default Wiki experience should be, but Vector 2022 feels like a regression, unfortunately. Vincentneo (talk) 15:35, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
222. Support - I do not like Vector 2022 for a myriad of reasons. There is too much unused space, and it looks bland as a result. I personally find it more difficult to read Wikipedia in Vector 2022 than Vector 2010. L'Mainerque (talk • contribs) 17:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
223. Support - The new design is difficult to read. I have had to log into my Wikipedia on every possible device I have, so that I can actually read articles. I have also had to tell friends and family how to make an account and revert the changes, just because they complained that they had difficulty reading with the new design. NorseNorman (talk) 17:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
224. Strong support, not that I expect it to change anything. The development has been a mess and it has created a lot of mess for everyone and anyone who's written and/or maintains a MediaWiki skin, like myself. The development process and rollout was flawed from the get-go and it was obvious to anyone who's been around a bit longer than a year or two that this thing would be deployed, no matter what; yet at the same time the WMF adamantly opposes to certain requests of the similar style that originate from within the community, because they didn't think of it.
     Additionally, the fixed ToC is distracting, as is the excessive whitespace and the narrowing of the content area is just one of the most bizarre design decisions I've come across in a while.
     In its defense, one can say that at least Vector 2022 tries to be responsive...but this was also already partially implemented by community members long before the so-called "Desktop Improvements"; the WMF had no interest in it at the time so the feature was hidden behind an off-by-default configuration variable, which they could later on axe saying that "nobody was using it".
     The "vote" that took place on the English Wikipedia...I think there might be a more descriptive word to describe a process where the outcome is already known prior to the voting taking place. But what would I know, it's not like I've been around and contributing to the MediaWiki software since 2008 with a strong focus on skins and skinning. --Jack Phoenix _(Contact) 20:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
225. Strong Support. New skin sucks. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
226. Support rollback to Vector 2010. Structure – such as the table of contents – makes sense at the top, where there is space to show sections and subsections. Unstructured knowledge is not knowledge. IP Editors need to have the convenience in easy finding of tools and should not have to guess, for example, that the three-horizontal-lines ("hamburger") icon needs to be clicked on to get extra tools. Non-logged editors should not be given the impression that Wikipedia is Tik-tok. The review of knowledge should be transparent and the structure and tools should be displayed, not hidden by default. Moreover, WMF should not have imposed this decision against community consensus. Boud (talk) 21:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
227. Strong support. The fact that so many single issue accounts (including myself) are being made specifically to avoid this "feature" should say more than anything I can put here. SingleIssueMotor 21:53, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
228. Support. (Full disclosure: I'm a long-gone user who dusted the cobwebs off the old account to vote on this.) The mobile version of Wikipedia should, in terms of functionality, be as close to a 1:1 match of the desktop version as possible. It can be that close but it's been years and it's still miles away. It's clear that this redesign is an effort to solve that problem not by doing what needs to be done on the mobile version but by making the desktop version more mobile-friendly. Predictably, and hilariously, the result is a skin that makes the desktop version less functional. If all the work put into creating Vector 2022 had instead been done improving the mobile experience, none of this would have been necessary. The mobile version remains far from its potential and all (or almost all) redesign resources on Wikipedia ought to be directed there. CityOfSilver 22:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     For all I know the mobile version is still mineurva. v22 has also been designed specifically for desktop with feedback conducted for all desktop users so I've always struggled to see the opinion that the skin was designed for mobile. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:30, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I mean, Vector 2022 does have some of the hallmarks of mobile web design. Squishing everything in the middle, using icons only instead of text sometimes, and hiding frequently used links that have been mentioned here ad nauseum in menus so that it looks "cleaner" instead of being easily accessible. Two of my friends that are tech-savvy instantly identified this as mobile first web design, and they're not the only ones in my friend circles that have said this. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 23:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Fixed-width has been across the desktop web (at least news sites) for years and hiding stuff in dropdowns with icons are just simple decluttering. I agree that the logged out hiding is too much but how is this all mobile oriented? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     What complaint did this sort of "decluttering" address and if it was really a problem, why did it take 12 years to solve? And for that matter, why does V22 work (arguably/slightly) better in a mobile browser than the actual mobile version of this site? CityOfSilver 02:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     why did it take 12 years to solve Winter, I guess. work...better in mobile than actual mobile On a phone, I don't think that's true. On table, well, ignoring the obvious editor improvements (since this is separate from the skin and people had been using the desktop skin on mobile to edit for years), the only improvements I see that can be seen as designed for mobile is just the iconifying, which I don't have much of a gripe with on desktop either. In fact with the pagetools rollout there are content flashes and crashes on way too small screens including tablets which might actually make v10 or mineurva more desirable on mobile. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Hiding elements in dropdown menus makes sense on a mobile devices with a small screen. Doing the same on a PC with a large screen doesn't make sense, it only wastes available space, makes accessing interface elements more difficult ant increases the time it takes. That's why Vector2022 is a typical example of mobile design. Freja Draco (talk) 13:23, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

229. Strong support. The new design really sucks and I was forced to create an account just to revert back to Vector 2010. Scourge of Arceus (talk) 06:58, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
230. Support Vector 2010 isn't perfect, but it's better than the new skin. Sooo much white space, ugh. -- Ned Scott 07:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
231. Support Vector 2022 causes styles in Vector 2010 to not be portayed correctly squishing content in tables creating an uneven not clean look. The TOC on the side is unnessecery and distracting, plus when hidden you have to hunt for the button to find it again. Articles with an infobox now look out of proportion to the text in the article. Overall it is not a helpful look for users to use especially new people unfamiliar with the icons. Paulpat99 (talk) 09:25, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
232. Strong Support There are quite some problems with Vector22, tho I believe they are fixable (with a lot of effort). What isn't fixable is the way this discussion is handled, specifically the way opposing voices are brushed off, criticism is ignored, or dismissed, or even declared invalid, or worse (I have seen suggestions that this change is beyond criticism, that WMF has decided, and we have to take it). I think it is very important for the Wikipedia community for this change to be rolled back, and a thorough review into how this failed so badly (not as a design, that is a different thing to be discussed, but as an exercise in interacting with the community) is started. This is not primarily an issue about design, this is an issue about WP:CON and WP:COMMUNITY and WP:RETENTION. --Lommes (talk) 10:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
233. Support because this has been an enormous waste of community resource. See WP:OWB#19. The Web team could have heeded the advice of the closers of the previous RfC and not fed the perception that WMF stands in the way of the community, yet it chose to shoot itself in the foot. This is a loss for both. Nardog (talk) 10:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
234. Strong Support As an IP address user of Wikipedia, when this change was rolled out I honestly thought it was a bug. It seemed like I was being accidentally served a mobile version of the site, and I only found out that it was intentional when I Googled how to fix it. I think that many IP address users will have poor impressions of Wikipedia, thinking that this new design is a bug rather than a feature. 173.219.167.170 (talk) 11:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
235. Support I’ve given it the week I was asked to give. While the new skin may be better for people who want to read an article right through its far worse for looking for things within an article simply due to there being less on screen. The new table of contents also manages to be worse for this. Being crushed along the left side it doesn’t cope well with longer section headings and has to put them on multiple lines. It also tends to trail off the end of the page if there are large numbers of section headings. It also sacrifices the white-space which allowed the article lead to be obviously split off from the rest of the article. It also tend to be actively misleading since it will highlight the second to last or even third from last section when scrolled down to the end. Collapsing the sub sections is also a mistake because again it makes things hard to find (consider the collapse of types and usage on Traction_engine). The tools section is also bad since at 1080p you are left with the choice of crushing text even narrower or hiding things behind a drop-down (so much for the fixed width arguments). Also being inconsistent being logged in and logged out creates communication issues. Requiring an extra click to find contributions is also a poor design choice as is replacing the word “watchlist” with a symbol people have to guess at. Wikipedia is a word based project. We can use them. Creating a design with massive amounts of unused space and then not using it seems an odd design choice. Making the logo smaller is going to create further problems with are visual identity with people mistaking non Wikimedia mediawiki installs for wikipedia.©Geni (talk) 22:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
236. Super-Duper Strongest Support This layout is one of the most atrocious layouts I have ever seen in my life. It makes the encyclopedia look amateurish, and I would sooner gouge out my eyes than try to stumble my way around this for another second. Whoever made this should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law Anon0098 (talk) 01:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
237. Support. If I go to someone's userpage, the links on the left (such as to their contributions, their block log, etc) are gone. I have to be logged in for them to be there. I don't want to have to jump through these hoops to see if someone has edited recently. Speaking of logging in, the top right corner has "Create Account", but I have to click to open a menu before I can click "Log In". Why is that hidden behind an extra click? It's like the redesign was done exclusively for the people who happen to show up to read. Trying to get stuff done is more difficult. It's just like Microsoft turning Windows into some kind of Fisher-Price design at the expense of the power users. Also, while I'm listing things, stop wasting my screen real estate with all that whitespace. Useight (talk) 02:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I would classify this as a breaking change. I'm not even sure how this made it into the skin. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Useight, the create account button is (apparently) used more frequently than the login button.
     @TheMissingMuse, what is the breaking change? — Qwerfjkltalk 00:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     breaking change: "the links on the left (such as to their contributions, their block log, etc) are gone" TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:01, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

238. Support. V22 actively makes Wikipedia more annoying to use. Even with the width fixed, hiding everything useful from the top menu behind incomprehensible buttons, requiring additional clicks, is such an annoyance that I can't ever see myself using this skin voluntarily. The skin obviously sacrifices utility for aesthetics and it's extremely frustrating for anyone trying to actually edit. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:59, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
239. Support. There are some useful ideas in the new skin, like the floating ToC (though I'd tweak the design). But overall I dislike, and it's less comfortable. As was mentioned in various comments, there should at least be a persistent (cookie) way to choose skin when not logged in. The FAQ mentions this being a problem for cache-generation reasons, but I don't get the logic. Shouldn't a skin be the same HTML, just different linked CSS and maybe JS? ¤ ehudshapira 14:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     It should, but modern web designers don't understand what was CSS developed for. Freja Draco (talk) 12:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Linking to different CSS or Javascript files requires a change to the HTML source returned by the server. For non-logged in users, HTML versions of Wikipedia pages are cached so they can be rapidly sent with very little logic processing required. It is of course possible to cache different versions of Wikipedia pages and add some logic to decide which version to return; it just will have a resulting cost for Wikipedia's infrastructure in order to maintain its current performance, handling thousands of views per second. isaacl (talk) 18:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     A bit of static JS code could check a cookie, then dynamically replace the pointed-to CSS.

     By the way, I do wonder if the caching they mention is of the complete final HTML, or only almost-final segments that are then joined together. For example, maybe logged-in users viewing articles have different top-of-pages, at least because of the username. (Or maybe that's not cached because it's just a small percentage of page views.) ¤ ehudshapira 22:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Sure, that's a second approach that has been discussed and I mentioned elsewhere on this page. This avoids requiring more cache, with the drawback that the page will be rendered one way at first, and then shift to a different appearance (or it will pause during loading, but that's generally not done anymore as this has a significant effect on both actual and perceived responsiveness). Judging by the discussion in the open Phabricator ticket, a Javascript approach is indeed what is being explored at present.

     It is not true. JS can be executed before HTML DOM is loaded, it can read url parameter trigger and create dynamic link to css sheet in document head section before document body is loaded and rendered. This is simply the laziness of the "masters" of Wikipedia. 83.30.229.13 (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Yes, as I said, another possibility is for the page to pause during loading. This causes the downloading of all associated resources (images, other Javascript files, stylesheets, and so forth) to pause as well, and thus it affects actual and perceived responsiveness. As a result, this isn't a preferred approach. isaacl (talk) 22:03, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Really? Do you find opening: https://en.wikipedia.orghttps://demo.azizisearch.com/lite/wikipedia/page/Cat?useskin=vector longer than: https://en.wikipedia.orghttps://demo.azizisearch.com/lite/wikipedia/page/Cat ? Now it is enough to put the "useskin" parameter in the domain name so that it is propagated to all internal links and the problem is over.

     Well, that's a different approach than executing Javascript before the HTML DOM has completed loading. (I'm guessing the request is not cached but sent to a MediaWiki server for rendering, thus taking more resources to serve, but I'm not sure.) Using a new subdomain or adding a parameter to every link changes the HTML throughout, and thus would require more caching infrastructure in order to maintain performance. isaacl (talk) 17:51, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     From what I understand, the caching for non-logged in users is the final HTML, so serving the page is essentially as simple as serving a static HTML page. That way it is extremely fast for the vast majority of Wikipedia server requests to read pages. isaacl (talk) 22:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     For logged-in users, there is no caching at the HTML level and the request has to be passed to a server running the MediaWiki software to be resolved. There are other levels of caching from a MediaWiki standpoint, as you may have noticed if you've edited a page that was transcluded by another, but the other page didn't update until it was refreshed (either by a manual purge or after the cached version expired). isaacl (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

240. Strong support: The new Vector 2022 default skin is a huge degradation in terms of readability, usability and perceptibility of content. Why do we have widescreen displays today when the content is centered and squeezed in the middle? Texts get longer, you have to scroll more, fewer images can be displayed in articles, which becomes a problem especially in galleries, and with multiple columns like on the main page, the line length becomes too short for good readability. Navigation on the left side is now cluttered with far too much line spacing, the icons on the top right are unintuitive, and the dropdown menus make for more complicated, poorer usability. When changing languages, you now not only have to open a dropdown menu, but also scroll using a scroll bar, and then search for the correct language in two columns. Overall, a massive degradation of the skin that contradicts basic findings of web usability and readability. Rio65trio (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
241. Strong support I will finally create an account (despite reading wikipedia since it started) to set preferences, but you can be damn sure I'm going to cancel my monthly donation unless there's an option to address the width issue for people who are not logged in. I can adapt to a new aesthetic over time but I'm on a desktop computer with a 24" monitor at 1920x1080, not some phone with a 6" screen. Why can't each platform gets what looks best for that platform? I absolutely hate the two or three inch white margins on the sides of most websites. If I wanted to look at blank white space I'd open a new word document and just sit there. It also just doesn't make sense to have a drop down menu when there's empty space to put it in instead. A drop-down menu is really best suited for when you want to cover something up temporarily. Otherwise, just have the menu sitting there. It's not cleaner, it's just less functional. The ToC is simply not necessary for me; I don't ever use it. At the very least, give users the damn CHOICE instead of forcing things down our throats like you're Apple or Tesla.75.60.111.177 (talk) 19:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
242. Support - The new skin is confusing and hard to use. The moved ToC is especially bad, but it's far from the only thing. This isn't me being a stick-in-the-mud; I'm a former web publisher. This was a poorly-trailed change, with clear negative outcomes for the regular user base. We already have too high a floor for entry, and this will make it worse. GenevieveDEon (talk) 20:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
243. Support It's not about 'nothing should change' as the opposers would have it. It';s that this change is garbage. Don't understand why the opposers think it's a step forward. The numerous defects have already been highlighted: whitespace, text width etc. It's all been said before. The "you can switch to old look" argument is irrelevant. In what way is it a defence to a sub-optimal product that you can revert to the previous better version if you want to????? Sheesh. Ultimate techie-with-head-up-their-ass answer. DeCausa (talk) 22:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
244. Support – As I wrote on MediaWiki, the problem with the "over-optimization for mobile" seen in Vector 2022 is that it sacrifices content for design. Wikipedia's core focus, unlike so many other websites, is on the content. It's the reason that it has become the go to on the web for information. The new skin undermines that reputation. Narrow screen width is associated with the type of endless scrolling seen on social media and social media is associated with artificiality, unreliability and disinformation. In summarizing press coverage of Wikipedia over the past 20 years, an article from MIT noted that Wikipedia "is now lauded as the 'last bastion of shared reality' online". As one user above put it well: "Wikipedia's look should be a little stodgy."
     If you're looking for a more specific criticism, one thing I did not notice until recently is that internal and external links are the same color in Vector 2022. This is a mistake. One of the most common problems in recent years is the inclusion of external links in the body of the article. There's good reason that policy prohibits them. External links are too promotional. However, if both are the same color, then combating this is significantly more difficult. It also again undermines Wikipedia's legitimacy because by making the two visually equivalent it confers a sense of reputability on the external website. If that is unwarranted then Wikipedia is hurt as well. —Noha307 (talk) 04:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Noha307, I'm fairly sure the links have always looked the same. How do you expect them to look? — Qwerfjkltalk 10:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     No, they definitely lightened internal link colors in V22. The WMF cited something about accessibility, but the original comment makes it clear that whatever minimal gain we get there is offset by the increased difficulty in distinguishing from external links. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 18:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     You can see that things were changed on Help:Link color. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 19:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     As noted above, there is definitely a difference. While I don't agree with sacrificing everything on the altar of accessibility, if it is a concern and the existing situation is unacceptable, why couldn't there there be different colors for each that are both accessible?

     According to phab:T213778, there might actually be a very slight difference in color, but if there is it is almost imperceptible. I see @AHollender (WMF): was involved in implementing this change. Could you explain a bit more about the decision? –Noha307 (talk) 02:25, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     The phab job is about visited links and non visited links, there is no difference between Wikipedia links’ and external links’ colors Aaron Liu (talk) 14:34, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     My mistake, thanks for the correction. –Noha307 (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

245. Support - This redesign is bad more reasons listed eloquently above. Veilure (talk) 05:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
246. Support - I don't doubt that individual aspects of the new skin do what they are intended to do in relation to improvement (though on a subjective note, I don't think that means the overall redesign has to be this ugly). People have mentioned the white space and the floating ToC as negatives, and I agree. The most important change for me, however, as a multilingual user is that the new language menu is nigh-on unusable; it overcomplicates switching, de-emphasises international versions of pages, and from its placement almost suggests they are translations of the content rather than pages on separate wikis (compare it to websites based in multilingual countries).
     It is good to see that the WMF are making changes (though even those are dubious - I don't think the answer to excessive white space on the right of the screen is to clutter it with the Tools menu!), but I think the entire design is incompetent, a clear retrograde step from legacy Vector, and needs a complete overhaul before being used as a default. Thank goodness for the ability to switch back, even though I've had to create an account to do so. Nimbue (talk) 09:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     248. Strong Support Why is it every time we get a winning hand the WMF insists on shuffling it? Can't we all just let it alone? Or do I need to to permently log in for all time to stop seeing the artrocious crimes against the project made manfiest by people who clearly have no Fucking idea what they are doing? (posting this anonomously, I can not figure out how to log in, sorry.) 173.172.215.80 (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Striking, I finally got help to log in, and everyone gets only 1 !vote on the matter. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

247. Strong Support The mystery meat icons (how is this a UI improvement? why do users have to search through menus to find anything?).
     The apparent lack of testing or even planning, wiki representatives telling us that "oh we're working on that" or "that feature is coming soon".
     Why was this released when it wasn't even finished?
     Roll it back, wait until it's actually *done* before pushing it out, and give non-logged users a way to use the old skin without pithy workarounds or a dismissive "just create an account" much like m.wikipedia feeds us the mobile version give us a "good.wikipedia" or something to give users a simple way to use the better skin.159.196.149.163 (talk) 01:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
248. Support using the wasted space in the right column. —RCraig09 (talk) 07:27, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
249. Support I have been trying it out for a week. The creators of this skin must have not thought of people viewing browser screens in windows these days. Trying to read Wikipedia in a window is now quite a bad experience.
     There are also weird bugs to be ironed out – (which are apparently not bugs at all?) – like the ToC being narrower than the main menu (as it currently stands, it seems to be changed all the time) plus empty space underneath the ToC.
     It just seems this wasn't tested sufficiently, despite apparently having been in the works for years. My issue is not with the thought of a redesign for Wikipedia, but that this redesign is a poor subsitution for what we had. —Jetro (talk) 12:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
250. Strong Support I'm just another reader that has found their way through the somewhat baroque "community" portion of Wikipedia. Why? Because for days now I've been thinking "something must be seriously broken, wikipedia pages only load half-way and display all out of whack". It's hard to believe this is *intentional*... The fact that it seems the WMF acted unilaterally is just icing on the cake, but it's not like I haven't seen "consensus" decide similar BS elsewhere before, too. OK, enough ranting, I just hope it's clear that unregistered readers like me digging their way through all the red tape (did I mention baroque?) means the new design is *seriously* broken...92.76.198.146 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I certainly hope that no smarty-pants decides to discard IP contributions to this RFC. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:49, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

251. Strong Support.
     
     In addition to all of the other reasons listed above, the coders are now breaking the URLs.
     
     Instead of pages appearing as https://en.wikipedia.orghttps://demo.azizisearch.com/lite/wikipedia/page/Page_name#Section_name,
     they're appearing as https://en.wikipedia.org/w/cruft.php?title=Page_name&morecruft_oldversion#Section_name, separating the page and section names that actual users need to have together to create direct links to article sections.
     
     Kindly raze these changes to the ground, salt the earth, and then rehire a team of developers who have actually edited pages before instead of only knowing how to handle generic code borrowed from github. — LlywelynII 15:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @LlywelynII, please don't insult the developers.
     How does this URL appear? I haven't got it. — Qwerfjkltalk 22:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I wouldn't really call those insults...Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:51, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I would call only knowing how to handle generic code borrowed from github an insult. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     You can take it any way you like. Here, it's not a pejorative, though. It's simply an accurate description of what has occurred. Anyone with further skill wouldn't've made this mistake. — LlywelynII 00:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Everybody can make any mistake. There's a reason the stonks exist. Generic code from github doesn't cruft php requests. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Note: This is actually an issue with the wikiwand extension that would appear regardless of which skin you use. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Wikiwandisn't involved and regardless wouldn't need to misplace the info if this change hadn't occured. I have a good guess why you might've the description above so inaccurately and personally. xD — LlywelynII 00:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @LlywelynII, it was mentioned in the WT:V22 thread that this is not related to V22 at all. — Qwerfjkltalk 07:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Assuming this is the discussion you're referencing, it does seem fully resolved if people act on Certres's discovery. At the same time, of course it's related to this change. If it hadn't happened, that cruft wouldn't be in the URL at all, regardless of other users' extensions. — LlywelynII 12:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     How would other users adding links from a completely separate browser extension be related to v22? If it hadn't happened, yes change your default skin to v10 and click on that link, you still see all that cruft in the link. It's not related to v22, it just happened that you stumbled on one of these cruft links near the end of January. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Have to agree with Aaron; I haven't had the misfortune of running across this phenomenon, and I've been using this skin for over half a year now. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

252. I support a rollback. I am sad to say I don't think this will change anything, but I voice my concerns anyway. The new layout has language links and content lists hidden in places where it is in no way intuitive to look for them, it has too much white space on the sides making the text cramped in the middle, which makes information tables harder to read. It has been said that the change would make it easier to read the encyclopedia on mobile devices, but I cannot see that it is when I try it. The change was made without any clear consensus for it. People who are not logged in are forced to use it, because for some reason, you are not able to opt-out of it unless you log in, and many people have no wish to log in just for the sake of a 2-minute-checking of some facts in the encyclopedia. I think Wikipedia will lose users, both voluntary editors and occational fact seekers, because of this new 'skin'. Ove Raul (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
253. Support due to previously mentioned whitespace/icon/menu issues. Lack of non-editor input into this skin's deployment is also a problem. --NuclearOverhauserEffect (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
254. Support. I've been using Vector 2022 for some time, with the hope that its issues would get ironed out far before it was deployed. Unfortunately, this was not the case; in fact, the recent change that moved most of the left sidebar to either a right sidebar or a menu has forced me back to old Vector. I find two main problems with Vector 2022: there's too much whitespace, and things are often buried behind dropdowns. (I find these annoyances to be all too common in 'modern' UIs. Maybe it's just me.) While I appreciate Vector 2022's usability improvements (side TOC, sticky header), I find that the fondness for empty space and dropdowns makes Vector 2022 overall harder to use. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 06:45, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
255. Strong Support My biggest problems with the Vector 22 include: having to click a menu to login, unintuitive icons without description replacing descriptive standalone text, insufficient consensus and notice gained by English WP, and that IP users who live in countries where creating an account is not possible must simply live with the change. I have read the previous RFP, read the reasoning and details the WMF provided, am aware that there was a Watchlist notice for the previous RFC, and I've read many of the comments in each section of this RFC, but I don't understand why the English WP decided to make this a default without much wider and longer consensus. I am rarely logged-in when browsing WP because I frequently browse WP in Incognito Chrome sessions (for a variety of reasons, namely history management), so I don't frequently check my watchlist (and even when I'm logged in to make edits, I simply don't visit it often), but with every new WP browsing session I have, I am smacked in the face with the large "Please donate" banner and have to click the "I've already donated button" (because I have and continue to do every month). Why wasn't the original RFC broadcasted wider when I received such large banners on every other page even after I donate monthly? Like @DB1729 stated, I understand that RFCs are not votes, but having read that RFC, I didn't see consensus, and certainly not strong consensus in favor of making it the new default skin.
     
     Lastly, I noticed some comments implying that most younger people (Zoomers, the generation of which I am a member, and the like) want simple UIs akin to TikTok and that changing the UI this direction would attract younger users, and I want to note that this is false. I am by no means a typical member of my generation-- I've been reading Wikipedia since I was 10 years old and editing it since I was 15, and at no point in my life has being an editor been seen as cool to those around me (with possibly two or three people being exceptions) despite knowing many people (I was a member of my student government and ran a couple clubs in high school and I'm now the president of two of my rather large university clubs (one of which has over 250 people in our Discord server and 50ish active members). A UI change will not make my TikTok-using peers (actually, fewer than half the people I know use TikTok; whenever we view content made there, it's either on YouTube or Reddit) more interested in participating in Wikipedia. The new skin has some benefits, may increase readership, and I appreciate that its creation was driven by three years of research, but it was a mistake to make it the default with such ambiguous consensus, especially before fixing the problems that were a condition of the original RFC's result. Thank you, KnowledgeablePersona (talk) 09:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
256. Strong Support - Strong support from me, don't think I really need to go into detail when Hal's first comment above pretty much described my thoughts. Tweedle (talk) 10:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
257. Strong Support - some of us still use desktops & laptops because cellular phones were not designed for editing an encyclopedia - they work best for making phone calls & taking pictures. Atsme 💬 📧 10:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
258. Support Rollback Although Vector 2022 may be seen as "more clean" I absolutely do not enjoy the general increase in clicks required to access the links I use on a regular basis. The old Vector looks good, and offers most important links at a single click's access without being intrusive. It's an effective use of the screen margins. I really can't see the appeal of this obsession with oversimplifying UI. I like the thought of the ability to collapse the sidebar (though not by default and I would personally never use it) but I am certainly not impressed by Vector 2022. I could get used to the new locations of tools/links (at least the ones that were still accessible, If I recall I seemed to have trouble using Twinkle) but the extra clicks needed to access just went over the line for me. GabberFlasted (talk) 13:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
259. Support The way this should've been done was: RfC, go back and fix problems, new RfC, repeat as necessary until you actually have consensus, implement. Instead it was just:RfC, fix problems, implement. This is going to make for an interesting media release, and some interesting outside commentary. Suggest that Slate should start to work on new headline, might I recommend something like: "Actually, people did notice" [Rollback 1 edit] Reverted edits by WMF to last version by Community. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 14:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     The interface needs to be treated more like content in its own right. Changes should get consensus before being made. It is not just a matter of "a few people didnt like it", it is a case of "the WMF should've actually got consensus for this controversial change". The WMF should not be exempt from the requirement to get consensus for controversial changes. To quote a common edit summary when reverting controversial edits with no prior consensus: "Please get consensus before making this change". Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 05:43, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

260. Strong Support It took me three days to figure out how to log in to the site. The white space is an eyesore. The layout is not user-friendly in any way, shape or form. Who thought this was a good idea? Oh wait, no one - thats why there was no consensus for the change in the first place. Take a lesson from MILHIST's first Coordinator Emeritus: "The status quo is generally a stable position, if nothing else; maintaining it for a while longer is unlikely to be as controversial as changing it." TomStar81 (Talk) 15:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
261. Support I can respect the arguments to making it look better on mobile, and if the change was only applied to the mobile site I wouldn't have an issue. Vector 2022 actively makes the UX worse on PC by adding all that whitespace, it is such an eyesore. I wasn't thrilled about Vector 2010 when that was introduced, but I could live with that and it did look nice. Vector 2022 made me actually log in for the first time in a year and return to active editing, just so that I could restore my beloved Monobook. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Update I've gone back and taken a look at the original RFC. I've conducted, moderated and closed plenty of discussions and RFCs during my time here as an admin, including a number of particularly controversial ones such as WP:BLPRFC2 with nearly 2000 edits made to it. I consider myself a pretty good judge of consensus. For the RFC that approved Vector 2022, I don't see it based on the strength of the arguments. This isn't purely a numbers game, although the !votes are something to be considered. It seems like a pretty clear no consensus in its current form. The opposers raised serious concerns about readability and a number of key features, which the closers either ignore entirely or fail to adequately address. The closing statement also openly acknowledges that they don't know whether the other concerns raised would be blockers, but decided that once the fixed-width issue was resolved (it wasn't) then a second RFC to follow up on those concerns wouldn't be necessary. This doesn't seem like the right way to close an RFC, especially one with as far-reaching consequences as this. If closers can't be sure if the other issues are important enough to need discussion, that's a clear sign that they do need discussion in the form of a no consensus close and another RFC. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

262. Support My concerns in the previous RFC were not addressed, and are still getting hand-waved away below. Remove the fixed-width monstrosity and move the TOC back into the content of the articles so readers can actually use Wikipedia. ~ Matthewrb ^{Talk to me · Changes I've made} 18:49, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
263. Support Absolutely not user-friendly in any way, and I don't appreciate the increase in clicks to access important links. The entire design is clunky and puts both readers and editors at a disadvantage. The text has also been enlarged, and that combined with the new colour choices makes the whole website an eyesore. I feel like I'm accessing Wikipedia Mobile from a PC. --Roundish ⋆tc) 23:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
264. Strongly support rolling back to Vector 2010. The response to critiques seems to be either "you'll get used to it," gaslighting anyone who says that it looks like it was designed for mobile, or ignoring the critique entirely. I fail to see how a consensus was formed after reading through the last RFC. I think even making the old mobile design forced on desktop would be an improvement over this mobile-esque design. While most news sites seem to regurgitate the press release that the change was minor, if you read the comments on those stories they are overwhelming both disagreeing that it was a minor visual change and negative towards the change itself. As other sites have made similar redesigns I have stopped reading them except for when they are linked on an aggregator site. In order to fix this redesign I think that you have to remove the floating ToC and put it back in the article, remove the excess white space, return the borders, remove the fixed with aspects, and change the language selection process. After completing all of those changes the design is so different as to need its own review process. 71.194.60.172 (talk) 23:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Comment: Fixed vote to make sure it was numbered correctly and counted. Yoshi24517 ^Chat _Online 01:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

265. Support. My main peeve is that the pages do not sort out well on 3:4 ratio monitors such as mine, looking too lopsided. I constantly feel like I'm in the feature-deprived mobile version (gasp). I thought Wikipedia was simplistic enough, but now it looks like the page is broken and the CSS isn't loading in. The Wikipedia sitemap is treated like an "accessory" off to the side on the Main Page, behind a settings-icon-looking three lines (what is that even supposed to represent?) I agree with others that this update may be good for readers, but it sets editors at a disadvantage. In addition, this new skin is becoming a big headache for me after many buttons were shuffled around. I like to read articles in foreign languages for practice and for fun, so I have account presences on dozens of other Wikipedias. Now I have to go through every single one, find a button which was moved somewhere else (in a different language no less), search through the settings, and change the skin back. I say this is an aesthetic and functional blunder on all points. Signbear999 (talk) 03:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Signbear999 The CSS should be able to load, what CSS are you trying to load exactly?

     The three lines icon is the notorious Hamburger button.

     You can set your global preferences across all foundation wikis. There is a giant button in the settings menu that looks like this:

     Global preferences: Set your global preferences Aaron Liu (talk) 13:47, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Ah, thanks for telling me about that Global Preferences button. Exactly what I needed.

     Also, when I referred to the CSS, I meant that the Vector skin seemed incomplete, as if the site wasn't loaded correctly. Sorry that was a bit confusing. Signbear999 (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

266. Support I found this RFC while looking for help to write a CSS override related to Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#c-PrimeHunter-20230131054800-Stuartyeates-20230131035800 where I raised an issue which sure looked like a bug to me, but was told it was a considered design decision. Just seems insane and deeply non-obvious design decision. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
267. Strong support – I don't believe I have anything unique to add. I have been critical of the Vector 2022 skin throughout its development and my concerns have never been addressed. This is a desktop interface, not a mobile one, and it should have been designed with desktop users in mind. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:31, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
268. Support First thing I did when this amateurish-looking change wet in was set myself back to the older, professional-looking one. Some designer or designers at the WMF need to rethink their career choices. ValarianB (talk) 13:58, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
269. Support It was unwise to push this out when the community was very much clearly against it in its present form. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:16, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
270. Support You received so much feedback but didn't listen to it, instead we were told that we don't understand what is good for us. Plumbum208 (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
271. Support Wikipedia should remain simple and easy to use. Vector 2010 has that pragmatic, minimalistic essence of the Internet era before the mass wave of useless updates and redesigns seen in the recent years. The new Vector is over-engineered mess, detached from the real necessities and interests of the common users. I see it as indication of decline in rationality, creativity and even common sense. 212.5.158.213 (talk) 19:13, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
272. Support Following its official, full-scale deployment, I gave it a fair shake and came away unimpressed. As a very longtime editor and user of Wikipedia, I firmly believe that the new skin is worse than the 2010 one for desktop users. While I can't speak for how good it is on mobile, if something is a downgrade in ANY way, it shouldn't be used, period. I don't believe the 2010 skin should be used forever, but the WMF designers should continue to work until such time as a superior skin in all aspects can be created, or not change it at all. -- ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:51, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
273. Strong Support I haven't edited Wikipedia in over 10 years and made an account so that I wouldn't have to use the new skin. I am glad that I can set the skin back with an account but I don't see why it was changed in the first place. Being willing to change is good but only if the change is good. Vector2022isbad (talk) 01:12, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
274. Strong Support Please please revert to the wonderful perfect old classic design which respects the readers using their full screen! It is absolute nonsense, arrogant and annoying, if the web-designers now decide over all Wikipedia users heads, that they must waste almost half width of their monitors (that I personally have bought to use its full extent!), and that as standard without logging in, they may not use the size of their screen. The original concept of HTML is great, because it allows to automatically adapt to fit the users' individual viewports and font size settings - as was and did the perfect old design! As for data sparsity and my data protection, I generally do not want to log in, if I do not necessarily have to transmit my personal data to a page or server for a good reason. This should absolutely not be neccessary just to be able to use my screen width for reading some Wikipedia page. It is absolutely no option to manually add some "?useskin=vector" to each URL and then reload the page. Please dispose of this horrible arrogant hardware- and energy-wasting "new" design! Thank you! 77.185.18.32 (talk) 02:42, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
275. Strong Support Please allow me to use my 21:9 screen. I fret to even think of how this looks on 32:9. If you want "modern", you have to follow or create some fluid design which adapts to the user device. Don't make it look like I wrongly landed on a cell phone page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mixonomicon (talk • contribs) 10:20, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
276. Support At least, until the majority of community complaints are resolved, Vector 2010 should stay the default skin for IPs and newly registered users (already registered users have an option to switch to Vector 2010). Vector 2022 rollout should involve one or more beta tests where users (including registered and IPs) are invited to try out the new skin on opt-in basis via a discardable banner that is displayed on top of the Wikipedia pages. The users should have an easy way to opt-out if they didn't like the new interface, and a prominent way to report their feedback. After the beta tests the skin may be enabled by default, but a way to persistently opt-out to stay on Vector 2010 must still be available for all users, including IPs. No, I do not consider bookmarklets and hacking the URLs as an adequate implementation of such an opt-out mechanism. My personal main problem with the new skin is the narrow content mode that is enabled by default and not persistently disabled for IPs. The content on some pages is unreadable in this mode and simply inconvenient to read on all pages, as it doesn't fit as much content on the same screen and requires more scrolling. Narrow content mode must be disabled by default, and the option to enable/disable should be persistent for all users, including IPs. 2A02:2168:84D9:2200:CF72:6FE7:ABBA:3DC6 (talk) 18:00, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     2A02:2168:84D9:2200:CF72:6FE7:ABBA:3DC6, see #Persistence for fixed width for all users coming this week. — Qwerfjkltalk 19:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

277. Support until they fix the Table of Contents. I saw the "new look" banner announcing the new skin in mid-January. I tried it out, read some discussions about it, and my impression was that it needed some work. But I kept using it to form a more informed opinion. It took me by surprise when enwiki made it the default so soon afterward. After using it for this long, I feel confident saying one thing about the design: The new Table of Contents is a regression. It makes navigating articles a chore. For one thing, its absence from the article body makes it less useful. It's out of the way and no longer helps the lead section flow into the meat of the article. Its usability is inferior as well. Having to click on the little arrow next to each top-level section to expand its subsections remains an annoyance, and so does needing to scroll down on it to see all of the sections in a long TOC. It doesn't belong in the sidebar, and the need for it to limit its vertical space as a result of being there results in poor usability. --Frogging101 (talk) 22:08, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Reading more comments here, maybe the sidebar TOC is a good complement to the inline TOC, so that article navigation can be accessed while reading without scrolling up. It could coexist with the inline TOC, it just can't replace it. Frogging101 (talk) 22:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

278. Very Strong Support:

     Table of Contents

     • I love the new TOC. However, the floating table of contents takes up way too much width. In addition, when hiding it, it sinks into a vague-looking hamburger button. When testing this a while back, I didn't know where to find the TOC after pressing the [hide] button, and I'm reasonably sure the same can be said for anyone not briefed in the new interface.

     Right Toolbar

     • One of the worst additions. It doesn't even display unless you are near the top of the article, leaving a sea of white across the entire right side. Hiding it is an option, but I regularly use it and would rather have it displayed.

     Floating Top Bar? (idk what to call it)

     • Interesting addition. I wish the search bar was included. I'm an idiot it's right there, please shame me. Overall, it's fine, though I prefer text instead of the icons (but that's really not an issue).

     White Space

     • GET RID OF IT NOW. There is no reason to have white space everywhere. It is a waste of perfectly viable display. If you are using a big screen, I sob, as the issue becomes even worse. Take a look at this:

       

       

     Do you see how much underutilized space there is in V2022 when compared to V2010? Like, just look at how much space the floating TOC takes up. About double the size of the old sidebar, keeping in mind that the old sidebar included *a lot* more than the current toolbar does. Y'all don't even wanna see it on a bigger screen.

     

     (I legitimately thought having a bigger screen would make the white space less noticeable. It gets worse, not better.)

     What it lacks in comparison to V2010

     • Lines - clear lines that break up sections evenly.
     • Static TOC - again, I like the new TOC, but the static TOC is a classic feature of Wikipedia. At least a toggle in Preferences.

     What it adds in comparison to V2010

     Floating TOC/Header - could be a massively useful improvement if they optimized them more.

     It's sleek - hate the layout or love it, the design itself gets rid of most of that 2010's-esque skeuomorphism and unnecessary gradientage; accordingly, arguments against the new design are few.

     The main issue is not one of layout, though, but of the processes that WMF employs.

     In the earlier phases of development, I responded to a survey about Vector 2022, largely saying the same things I said above. I'm pretty sure this [4] was that survey. I'm a fairly new editor, and have not been here for any major design changes such as this one. Reading the above link made me realize something:

     WMF doesn't care about Wikipedia editors.

     I don't understand why. Scratch that. I know why. They're a multimillion dollar company. They can do whatever they want:

     They claim that, due to unfinished responses and vandalism in the form of foul language, that around 75% of the responses were invalid (keep in mind we don't know which responses).

     Let me repeat this again, for y'all who weren't listening:

     WMF disregarded 75% of the responses on their own survey, then declined to show us which ones were disregarded.

     RED FLAG.

     This is the shadiness that ruins relationships, WMF. Full transparency isn't that hard. Come on.

     To summarize:

     I have lived through quite a few nasty UI/UX changes that I disliked (Logic 9 --> Logic Pro X really irked me, so did UE3 --> UE4) and they hampered my creativity. Overall, however, those design changes were for the best, and it could not be argued that the old one was in any way better once you got to know the new interface.

     I cannot argue for or against this change as it pertains to the average Wikipedia user. It's... fine, with pros and cons that balance themselves out, generally speaking. I can only speak for myself, an editor here, and I really dislike this change.

     However, WMF has made it clear that they don't want my vote as an editor; at the very least, they value it less.

     I appreciate this influx of editors and readers, new and old, that have responded to this RfC. Normally, something like this would be described as canvassing (and personally I think WMF tried to engage in canvassing with this email --> [5]) but this seems to be a unique case. Please stay and become editors. We need y'all.

     And with that, all the best, Cessaune [talk] 00:21, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Nice write-up. While I don't really agree with how the points were weighed and the conclusion, your points were really good and I agree with most of them. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Just here to point out that search does exist in the sticky header; it just requires a click on the on the left side. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:50, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Yep, I'm an idiot. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Cessaune [talk] 03:39, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     great summary of the support argument WikEdits5 (talk) 09:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

279. Support. The current form of Vector2022 is significantly less user-friendly than Vector2010, and has many issues as detailed above. I also support arguments that the status quo is Vector2010; the requirements of deployment from the previous RfC have not been met, with the page width toggle not being fit for purpose - I am unable to find it when logged out, on top of the other issues raised with it - and the other issues listed have not been addressed either. BilledMammal (talk) 07:32, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Specific reasons include hiding the login button behind a mystery meat button, hiding buttons in general behind mystery meat buttons, the removal of the TOC causing MOS:SANDWICH issues, the sidebar TOC being unsuited for pages with significant nesting, particularly discussion pages - this last aspect is very concerning, as we don't want to make it harder for new editors to join in discussions and contribute. BilledMammal (talk) 07:49, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     An upcoming update is going to move Log in out of . —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 13:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I'm glad to see some improvements are being made, although far more are needed before Vector 2022 is a viable option. To add to the issues with the list above, the sidebar TOC is generally unsuitable for longer articles. With Vector 2010 if I want to get an idea of the contents of the page it was easy to browse the TOC. With Vector 2022, in addition to nested elements being collapsed, items in the page of contents are often hidden in the scroll down, both becuase it is narrower than the former TOC and because it cuts off halfway down the page. BilledMammal (talk) 10:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     For me the TOC scrolls automatically, I heard there’s some sort of scrolling bug on chrome, this might be it Aaron Liu (talk) 12:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     It does scroll down automatically, but when I want to review the topics on the page I want to be able to see the entire TOC, not just a small portion of it.

     Having reviewed the WMF's most recent comment, I still support rolling back to Vector2010; while the WMF may be able to bring Vector2022 up to a point where it is superior to Vector2010 we are a long way from that point and Vector2022 should only be deployed when there is an immediate and explicit consensus to do so. I note that I also don't believe that the requirements for deployment made in the previous discussion for deployment were met, and so believe the status quo is Vector2010. BilledMammal (talk) 23:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Considering WP:CONEXCEPT; I don't believe that it is relevant to this discussion. It doesn't say we can't form a consensus, it only says that such a consensus would not bind the WMF. This has precedent; other discussions (Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Approval of Enforcement Guidelines without first approving a Code of Conduct, Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 196#RfC on the banners for the December 2022 fundraising campaign are two recent ones) have come to a consensus on questions that are subject to CONEXCEPT. It would also set a dangerous precedent if this proposal is rejected on the grounds of CONEXCEPT; it would suggest that we cannot challenge decisions that are subject to CONEXCEPT through the consensus process, because the result will always be a consensus against regardless of how strong the support is. BilledMammal (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

280. Strong support for numerous reason. Among others: Too much whitespace, confusing TOC, functionality distributed all over the place, tools below the title, even more mystery meat navigation than before. This redesign is a massive step back in usability and readability, it should be rolled back. --Millbart (talk) 14:31, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
281. Support It's not just the too much white space (which I hate and which I now have from all places where I can't be loged in), its also that on average it is no improvement. And a change that big should be an improvement. Its not a fashion show.--Fano (talk) 15:12, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
282. Support Benjamin (talk) 21:02, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Benjamin, remember this is not a vote but a WP:!vote, which means you have to give reasoning and not just an affirmation of support. Cessaune [talk] 21:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     All my reasons have already been said by others. Benjamin (talk) 22:05, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Pick someone who says something you agree with and say 'Support per [user]'. Cessaune [talk] 22:17, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Support per Cessaune 🙄 Benjamin (talk) 22:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Haha :) that works Cessaune [talk] 01:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

283. Strong support - I see almost none of the issues I raised in the last RfC I took part in have been addressed -- in fact, it seems the new skin has barely been changed at all -- so I'm not going to repeat myself. I can see one change in that the background is now fully white, which looks more consistent/professional than the old new Vector and also harder on the eyes than either prior version. Another is the full width toggle which I've had to point out to several people at my workplace, as they couldn't find it on their own. It doesn't help that it's among the the last items to load, and the pages don't load very fast to start with. I could suggest that they create an account and set the skin they like, and even hope that they'll start contributing, but I'm a little uncomfortable with that logic. Besides, one of my main attractions when starting to edit Wikipedia was going down the rabbit hole of Special:WhatLinksHere and Special:Random. Why/how do we expect to attract new editors if we're hiding more and more of the editing process from them. P.S. I hope that the permanently checked checkbox saying "Enable limited width mode for improved reading experience" under the original Vector's preferences is not a sign of things to come. I also don't understand why my intentionally set preference for Vector Legacy was cleared. Daß Wölf 23:14, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Coming back to this a month later, we have a little more data now. For example, we can see that 22% of editors that have made 5 or more edits since deployment have opted out -- less than 40%, but how often do you edit your cookie settings when visiting some random new website? We now know that one of the chief arguments in favour of the switch is a survey that attracted a couple times fewer respondents than this support subheading here. The WMF noticed a spike in account creation to revert to Vector 2010, but decided (in retrospect? February 1) that the readers could've only shown their appreciation for Vector 2010 by creating fewer accounts than usual.

     OK, I'm being needlessly snarky here. The devs have now clearly started addressing some the several long-standing issues that had been raised for the past three years at the mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements archives, as well as at the previous RfC. WMF employees are commenting, and even responding to criticism, some of which has been incredibly rude and unWP:CIVIL. They're dealing with a community and process that's surely as unfamiliar to them as theirs is to us. They need to be commended for all this. Nevertheless, it's clear that at this pace it will take a while until the new Vector is as usable as the old one, and I'm worried that things will stall again if we keep Vector 2022 as is and move the discussion about it out of the spotlight, hence I'm reaffirming my strong support. Daß Wölf 12:49, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

284. Support. Full disclosure - I'm a former long-time-retired editor who scrambled his password, and I made this username only to continue viewing Wikipedia in Vector Legacy with no intentions of ever editing with it. However, per the ANI disclosure that WMF has had its' thumb on the scale, so to speak, I have decided to cast a !vote. I never edited with mobile and I don't read with mobile, and the excessive whitespace and floting TOC are an annoyance. Fgsfds mah boi (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
285. Support 2010. Wow, just saw this. Maybe I was right in calling 2022 Wikipedia's New Coke. Maybe 2022 can go back to the drawing board for just a few nudges and then come back with everything solved, improved, and playable by a ten-year old (I use Monobook, a quality nice-looking easy to navigate skin which was Wikipedia's default when the non-avian dinosaurs roamed). Randy Kryn (talk) 16:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     when the non-avian dinosaurs roamed Good one! Aaron Liu (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

286. Strong support from an avid reader's perspective
     Readability: I understand there's a study (something like in 2007 for tablets, but still) and I agree there is some improvement in reading/comprehension for shorter-length lines. By those standards, the new line length, even with an infobox on the side, is too long and it does feel long if I'm focusing on readability. However, as others have said, Wikipedia is not a book to read start-to-finish, but rather a source of information, where one likes to benefit from the sheer amount of it. I regularly skim through articles to find the parts/paragraphs I'm interested in, and full width is much more conducing to that. If there were a proposal/layout that in some way does both (more readable line length, and full width to not scroll needlessly), I'd try that. Until then, the new skin is a downgrade for me.
     Whitespace: As stated by others before, the new all-white approach doesn't do a good job of separating the contexts, like the article from the sidebars. If we're taking examples from elsewhere and best-practices, the main content should have a different background and/or border. Even if the ToC relates to the article, it needs visual separation because it's not part of the content per-se, the headings within the content are.
     Alignment: In itself, the idea of centering the contents within the viewport is no issue. But the sideways shift of the contents that happens when hiding/showing the ToC or the main menu, that is distracting and makes me lose track of what line I was reading. Also, the white gap between the main menu and the contents is disproportionately large, especially when comparing to the white gap between the (expanded) main menu and the light gray page background. So while this gap should bring a bit of context separation, it is too wide, and with everything being white, has the exact opposite result. Additionally, there is a visual eyesore in the main menu being misaligned with the Wikipedia logo; yes, that's a small thing but surely it should have been brought up in 3 years of development...
     Mystery icons: If this redesign is supposed to be for desktops, then there should be text links for additional/hidden (as in not visible by default because it is rarely used) functionality, first and foremost. If the default and only option is a button, that's mobile-first. You can have icon+text on wide screens (seriously, who hovers over an icon on a huge screen to hopefully find out what it does?), which degrades gracefully on low-res into just a button icon - with the additional advantage that seeing the icon next to the text (rather than just text degrading into icon) clarifies what the icon will do. Assumptions on what an icon (like hamburger or three dots, which are arguably interchangeable) will do are counter-productive, because every single website will use them differently. On top of that, "paired" icons should make sense when taken together - this is where the hamburger and << are just mismatched. Some (rather important, I would say) functionality is just needlessly hidden off: ToC button, other languages, log in. Finally (and again making my point on the assumptions), the width control is (1) waaay outside of any page context, hidden in an unused corner, (2) masquerading as a fullscreen icon (sorry, I have F11 and browser controls for that) and (3) confusing in its (ugh) hover-text - which says "toggle limited content width". Sorry, do you mean *more* limited?
     ToC: First of all, this is like one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia to me. I wouldn't mind having a pinned "Show/Hide table of contents" on the sidebar, at all times. The current state, however, makes it difficult to get the ToC back. I have mixed feelings about the ToC being left out of the actual contents; it was very helpful between the introduction and the actual contents/headings. On one hand, I find it strange to go straight from the introduction to the contents, without any pause. On the other hand I also like not having to scroll that much to get to the contents (when there's a large ToC). A potential compromise that I can think of would be to have some sort of demarcation - whether by a higher whitespace (ref. whitespace as useful separation), or a high-level ToC (e.g. first-level headings only), or something like "Show table of contents" which adds an old-style ToC back inside the main page (of course, paired up with an adjustment on the sidebar to prevent two ToCs showing side- by-side).
     The biggest drawback of the new sidebar ToC, in my book, is the focus/bolding of what section it *thinks* I am on. If I'm scrolling through, 95% of the time it's going to tell me I'm on the previous section, because I probably still have even 2 pixels of its spacing in the viewport. A lot of times, I have two full sections visible in the viewport; I either get the *previous* one highlighted, or at best the first one, even if I could/might be fully reading the second section, with a third section title at the bottom of my screen. I completely understand there's no catch-all fix for this, but the sidebar ToC could highlight those sections which are partially/fully visible - for example, the partially-visible sections could use semibold weight and a light gray background color; the fully-visible sections could be bold and medium gray background color; the *first* section for which the *heading* is visible on-page could have a dark gray background color.
     Finally, with the addition of ToC on the left side, it is easier to browse articles side-by-side, in a different browser window, and jump to this section of this article and that section of that article. What feels missing though, is a page title at the top of the ToC - whether when browsing through multiple articles, or a single article in full-screen. As it is, the sidebar ToC headings are a bigger font than the title of the browser page, and if the actual browser tab is not the first/second, it's not that easy to figure out precisely which article's ToC I'm looking at.
     Floating/fixed top bar: I've seen that mentioned, but I'm not seeing that in Chrome or Edge. Sounds like an interesting and possibly useful feature, but I've yet to see it on any page.
     My conclusions: The communication on this whole endeavour could have been better, to say the least. I've seen the changes some time ago on French Wikipedia, I was very disappointed but I thought it was a local thing; I have not seen any sort of banner/information on English Wikipedia with almost daily browsing. The whole skin/theme feels like a beta version, unfinished, almost lacking feature-parity (due to the amount of mystery buttons and extra clicks), and detrimental on the ease-of-use. To the promoters and people directly involved: I get it you're invested, but this has stirred everyone up not because of just one thing, like the width or the ToC... it's all of it! "Fixing" (or rather, as has happened, promising to fix) one thing won't magically make it better and achieve consensus (ahem). Nothing is perfect (!), but this is *so far removed* from perfect that the insistence is baffling. 89.136.170.51 (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     > there's no catch-all fix for this, but the sidebar ToC could highlight those sections which are partially/fully visible

     Now that's an interesting idea! Analogous to scroll bars where the drag-handle sizes to show the extent, or a thumbnails bar that outlines the current viewport. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 20:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

287. Strong Support Many of the other people in this talk page have undoubtedly said what I am going to say, but the new skin just looks visually unappealing. Wikipedia as a website is known for its 2010 skin, there are no issues I am aware of with the readability of the old skin. Just let sleeping dogs lie for once. Rabawar (talk) 22:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
288. Support Even with a Wikipedia account, I still need to log in to Wikipedia every time I use it on a different device/browser now if I don't want the new Vector. The responses here, from the survey, and from the previous RFC in 2022 suggest that there is anything but consensus for changing the default skin, so why is it being forced upon visitors to the site by the WMF as default? The opinion of alleged UI experts should not take priority over people who use the site, all the time. It is unreasonable to expect that visitors will need to create an account an log in, on each new device or each time they are logged out, to avoid a skin that the community had no consensus was better. As for my personal opinion on Vector 2022, I do not like clicking through layers of menus to get to features that were readily available around the main page before including to simply log in. I do not like that half of my monitor is unused - why would someone use a wide monitor if they wanted half of it to be blank? All of the white and the lack of grays is a strain on my eyes. Overall it seems like a mobile site that is curiously intended only for desktop users. It is a fallacy to oppose the principle of taking a step back because it has already been done, as it is to assume that all changes are progress. Trolley8 (talk) 03:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
289. Support I have hated the redesign for a while and I have been wondering there was a vote to remove it. Finally found it. If it were up to me, I think we should rollback to the standard skin too. The last available username (talk) 04:15, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @The last available username, remember, this is not a vote, but a !vote, which means you have to give reasoning stronger than simply hating the redesign (what specifically about it you hate, for example). The RfC will be judged on the merits of the !votes, and you don't want your !vote to go to waste. Cessaune [talk] 04:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Just how are people supposed to justify their tastes and opinions? This is an inherently subjective matter. Again, I feel like this whole process is rigged from the start to protect WMF from having their egos bruised by having to make a reversal.

     People don't like the new look. They don't have to justify why they don't like it. If they WMF was actually interested in fixing things we could have a constructive talk about what exactly to fix, but as long as they aren't seriously listening that's not really possible, is it? What are people supposed to say? 2600:1700:1471:2550:21B6:FBB3:C22B:B099 (talk) 06:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     2600:1700:1471:2550:21B6:FBB3:C22B:B099, they're not. If you just don't like it, then you can change back. If there's a reason that others should not (be forced to) use V22, then that's a valid justification. — Qwerfjkltalk 10:11, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     By your logic why should V10 users be forced to change to V22? If we are judging by what will make the most people happy that pretty clearly seems to be reverting to V10. And yet we see nothing happening in that regards. This whole RfC process is garbage. It's just an excuse for the WMF to continue to do whatever they want via dictatorial fiat while they pretend to care what the users think. There is no consensus here, but there is a majority and they say to change in back to V10. That is as objective an analysis as we can get here, I think. 2600:1700:1471:2550:4C5D:1710:CE18:6176 (talk) 20:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     The RfC process is definitely very useful, but no conclusion an RfC comes to has any binding effect on WMF (see WP:CONEXEMPT). Secondly, yes, you have to justify why you don't like V22. Being adverse to change is normal, especially when it comes to UI/UX changes, and WMF isn't going to change something this big because a few editors, or even a lot of editors, simply didn't like it. A potential closer might disregard your opinion because you voted and didn't !vote. If you care so strongly, !vote.

     Also, I argee with your analysis. This is precisely why we have to !vote and not simply vote, because it makes it harder for WMF to come up with a faulty conclusion. Cessaune [talk] 23:47, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     The WMF don't seem very interested in listening to what sure looks like the majority. They keep doing everything possible to protect their egos of having to backtrack on this redesign they foolishly made a big deal about like it was some great good. It's absolutely exasperating, but that's where things seem to stand. They are making a few token changes, but mostly are in full "this is fine" mode.

     This just shows again why if you don't have something locally you don't actually have it at all. Anything remote can be taken away at any time. We really need to work on local machine Wikipedia, I guess. 2600:1700:1471:2550:21B6:FBB3:C22B:B099 (talk) 06:29, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Yes, this appears to be the case. Internally this has to have become a mess. For a professional organization with a global scope, this roll-out has been quite unprofessional. It's important to understand that this isn't the fault of the engineers or designers at this point. Someone in middle management has likely staked their reputation on this skin, over-investing in something that should have gone through much more usability testing and validation before being rolled out globally. The documents we have seen so far, including the survey report and the canvassing, indicate that we are well into the CYA phase of the project. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I agree with 2600:1700:1471:2550:21B6:FBB3:C22B:B099. The last available username (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

290. Support For all of the reasons mentioned in previous supporting statements but especially the excessive whitespace. I have been a reader of Wikipedia for many years and I created an account just to post my support for the rollback and set my skin preference for my home computer. I frequently use other computers not belonging to me where I will not log into this account and I feel it isn't right to force a specific content size as the default for non-logged in users. As many previous comments have stated, if readers believe the presented theories on the relationship between line length and reading comprehension, they can simply resize their browser windows to their preferred line length as I'm sure they do with any other dynamic content. Forcing content to a specific size seems to be contrary to the whole concept of windowed applications running on a desktop computer and it isn't fair to place the burden of escaping the size limit on those who choose not to log into an account. Also, there's just too much white. I don't mean whitespace but lack of shades or coloring in the interface. I know this is venturing into the territory of personal preference but it feels like the articles just melt into the navigation/table of contents and background. The gray backgrounds of the navigation and ToC in the Vector2010 and MonoBook themes differentiate these sections from the article content and provide a visual cue for the portions of the page used to operate the site versus the portions that present the content. The gray border also creates a kind of "flow" as you travel down the page and is reminiscent of viewing the left page in an encyclopedia against the lining of its hard cover. Vector 2022 makes the text feel like its just floating in mid-air. Wikipedia has always been minimalist which I can appreciate but there is a point when minimalism goes too far. VectoringForInfinteSpace (talk) 08:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
291. Support For people with hand/arm disabilities, the inefficient use of screen real estate creates the need for a lot more clicks, a lot more scrolling just to read an article. As a contributor with such disabilities, it makes it harder and slower for me to contribute. I did comment on this issue during its development, but it seemed nobody listened. I have no objection to its being an option, but not the default. Kerry (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Support For people with hand/arm disabilities, the inefficient use of screen real estate creates the need for a lot more clicks, a lot more scrolling just to read an article. As a contributor with such disabilities, it makes it harder and slower for me to contribute. I did comment on this issue during its development, but it seemed nobody listened. I have no objection to its being an option, but not the default. Kerry (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC) Striking through as this is a duplicate answer Cessaune [talk] 04:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     A design that makes it hard for people with disabilities to navigate is objectively worse - - მარია ზაქარიაძე (Leave me a message!) 15:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

292. Support: As the Vector 2010 skin has been the default for the majority of Wikipedia's existence, plus it's the style that most Wikipedia editors have gotten used to (myself included), completely revamping the look just doesn't make sense. If this new skin stays in place, all of Wikipedia's community, both editors and readers, must change the way they interact with the site. Reading is harder for both groups with excessive whitespace not fully using the whole page to its advantage, as excessive margins naturally attract more attention than blocks of text (as everyone has complained about). Navigating is harder with reorganised and reshuffled side links. While the new article ToC remains one of only a few good changes, I cannot support keeping it as the default in its current state, especially if IP editors have no convenient way to permanently switch back to the old look that we've all been used to for a decade. Liamyangll (talk to me!) 07:45, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
293. Strong Strong Strong Support:The new design is harder to navigate, especially for people with disabilities since you have to click multiple times to get to where you want. With the 2010 Vector, it’s all right there. No confusing drop down menus. The new design just looks low quality overall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by მარია ზაქარიაძე (talk • contribs) 09:11, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     harder to navigate, especially for people with disabilities I disagree. Besides tab navigation which got better, the buttons are a lot larger than text and are easier to click on. That outweighs needing to click multiple times. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     "the buttons are a lot larger than text" - Text placed directly on the page can be easly accessed by text search, text in drop down menu doesn't. You can see all text placed directly on the page, text hidden in drop down men (for example language list) requires scrolling inside the menu. Two click instead one click. To sum up, lengthening and hindering access. Freja Draco (talk) 13:45, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That being said, I get the point that it needs more scrolling. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:40, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Not just more scrolling, but more clicks/muose movements to get anywhere. Someone with motor disabilities likely has their screen magnified, rendering the 'clicking multiple times' argument dead. Cessaune [talk] 17:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I'm no expert on motor disabilities and apologies for moving the goalposts, but if a person can click once can't they click twice for less common functions? Something tells me there's something more but please tell me what that something is. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:02, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Well, there are accessibility options like automatic clicks and the like. If I had, for the sake of example, MS (multiple sclerosis), clicking more might be easier than finessing that mouse if the buttons are bigger. Other diseases might make the reverse easier. If I was trying to make something as accessible as possible, I would simply make the words bigger. Same amount of clicks, same amout of mouse movements, less chance for misclicking. Hiding it in a easy-to-click button both introduces and solves problems. And if your hands are super bad, you may use the keyboard to navigate. Or you might have a neurological disease (maybe a rare form of visual agnosia, maybe? Autism? ADD?) that makes pattern recognition hard, but you can read and understand words fine (or the reverse, though I don't think you would be on Wikipedia if that were the case). Or maybe you have lots of pain in your fingers, rendering it harder to click more. Or maybe you have Cotard's syndrome, and you think that your hands are fully gangrenous, which might introduce phantom pains and make your fingers hurt the more you click, or maybe you have... There are so many potential accessiblity issues to take into account that I'm now wavering on my previous answer. I guess it would make the most sense to keep what is familiar, given that the icons aren't really better or worse, but may create confusion? I don't know. Cessaune [talk] 01:48, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

294. Support.
     • White space on the right side. Why is it there? "Create account" and the three dots hiding the login move to the edge of the white space on a wide screen, why not the rest of the page?
     • Table of contents, part 1. Used to give an overview of the contents of the article, and it had a "hide" button for the people who complained that it created too much white space. The contents section in the side bar is useless. Cuts off after 41 lines, i.e., forces readers to scroll in longer articles with several levels of subsections after clicking to make them visible. Why can’t you make it wider (why is there all that white space on the right side) and as long as necessary to eliminate the need for clicking and scrolling? About the only positive thing about it is that the lines now wrap, but if that’s possible now why couldn’t you make that work in the original ToC?
     • Table of contents, part 2. Used to separate the lead from the body of the article. Now there’s just some text above the first section heading. (Welcome to Wikitannica?). If Vector22 stays, the text should be shortened to a couple of sentences establishing the subject, and the summary eliminated altogether.
     • Table of contents, part 3. "Hide" buttons should hide only the content of the section, not the heading. There should also be a "show" button to make the contents visible again.
     • Log in. There’s plenty of space at the top. Don’t make me do an extra click to get to the log in. Also, it would be logical to show the info for logged out editors (pages, talk, and contributions) to people creating an account, not to those who already have one.
     • Languages. Seems like busywork to put them top right when you could have left them where they were and added a hide/show button or a drop-down menu.
     • Menu. We’re not the New York Times. A "Menu" section heading with a hide/show button or a drop-down menu would be easier to understand. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:24, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
295. Support – the goal of making paragraphs of text less obscenely wide is an admirable one, but the solution of cramming all of the content including figures into a narrow column is not the right design. The web designers should go back to the drawing board on this one. My recommendation would be to add CSS rules to limit the width of text paragraphs, while letting floating images go into the right-side margin on larger displays, and letting larger elements such as tables, image galleries, columns of footnotes, etc. be wider than paragraphs. This approach has been working very well for me in my personal stylesheet for years. –jacobolus (t) 23:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Disclaimer: I wasn’t a fan of the previous redesign either, and stuck with Monobook. I add the following CSS to limit the width of text lines:

     p { max-width: 45em; }
     li, dd { max-width: 43em; }
     blockquote p { max-width: 37em; }
     form p, form li { max-width: none; }
     

     This isn’t perfect and with hours / days of effort I am sure it could be improved. But it works well for me. YMMV. –jacobolus (t) 00:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

296. Support – Vector 2022 adds a bunch of difficulty to navigation. The width issues make articles with a lot of tables (ex: episode tables) display text in an awkward fashion (much more compressed). Also, there are random accessibility issues popping up (ex: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film#Awards and accessibility under Vector 2022 which flags how Vector 2022 is impacting link colors) so Vector 2022 shouldn't be the default until these accessibility issues are addressed. Ideally, there should be an option for not signed in users to be able to switch skins. Sariel Xilo (talk) 05:27, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
297. Support: although I use MonoBook when I'm logged in (out of personal preference of its look, rather than anything wrong with Vector 2010), Vector 2022 is unpleasant to use when I'm logged-out or not on my own machine. The main issues are: 1) the border are massive wastes of screen real-estate and lead to more frequent scrolling when reading articles, 2) the lack of enclosure between the different parts of the interface (article text area, background, etc) is bad design and me second-guess where the edge of the article text is, 3) the design is just bland: white, white, white. It makes my eyes glaze over after a while, in a way Vector 2010 or MonoBook don't. I've heard a lot of similar laments from account-less readers in person. --Inops (talk) 14:38, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
298. Support - Since this new format came out I have had trouble reading up on articles here. I dislike this layout. It is not intuitive for reading, as others above have noted. Please change it back. 71.41.15.218 (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
299. Support and fire the people who pushed it through. (OK, that's a bit harsh) –Fredddie™ 01:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Fredddie: Please consider that this is a WP:!VOTE; the merit of the comment is what really matters. You are invited to point out specifically what you don't like of the new interface, so that those who will close the RfC will consider it. Æo (talk) 01:37, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I don't like any of it. –Fredddie™ 01:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     What specifically do you hate the most? Cessaune [talk] 01:54, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

300. Support - The new Vector has poor layout and does not make the most use of space. The Vector 2010 skin has worked well for years and I didn’t see any good reason why it needed to be changed. Dough4872 02:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
301. Support - I honestly tried to give Vector2022 a chance. It sucks. It wastes a lot of screen space and the frequently used commands are burried. As for the opposing argument, I can't beleve the argument we should give priority to the people who have high end high resolution displays. Someone with a high end monitor can always shrink the window size. Someone who has a low resolution monitor cannot scale up. IMHO it's more important to be friendly with low end hardware, not the high end. Is wikipedia for the poor or the rich? Dave (talk) 02:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
302. Weak support: roll back, unless the unlimited width is made a default and the link colors are returned to the 2010 scheme. I'm not going into further details on the latter issue because colleagues User:Femke and User:Noha307 already described that problem very well above. I hope it's possible to find a compromise when external links (both visited and unvisited) are discernible from (visited and unvisited) wikilinks, and the color scheme meets the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines at the same time (but if not, sorry W3C, the external link issue is more important). I also don't like the new top menu, but it's not relevant for non-registered users, so not a big deal. ToC leaves something to be desired, but it's at least usable unlike the limited-width regime. Ain92 (talk) 11:04, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That sounds like conditional support, not weak support, unless you're doing a conditional weak support. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:45, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Aaron Liu, you have made more than 200 edits to this page by now, and a lot of them are rather unnecessary. This page is already very long, please consider not posting unless there really is something new or important to say (i.e. not like the above comment). Fram (talk) 13:27, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I agree with Fram, there's not much point in arguing over which adjectives users put before "support" when there are 300+ support votes here. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 04:25, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

303. Support: I tried to keep in mind that brains don't normally like UI changes in general so I waited a bit before weighing in, however, even after waiting I think that Vector 2022 was a step backwards. I think it's harder to navigate and negatively impacts readability. Flalf^Talk 18:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
304. Support The old view is much better for desktop. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 21:49, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
305. Support I don't get why they need a new skin all of a sudden. The new skin has a lot more blank space and requires a lot more scrolling, and is harder to use imo. No offense to whoever designed the skin, but I think most people are still used to the old vector. Weeklyd3 (talk) 00:39, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     After thinking about it, I think asking readers (who do not have an account and thus cannot change their skin) what they think of vector 2022 would be nice, since the vast majority of site visitors come not to edit but to read articles. Weeklyd3 (talk) 00:44, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

306. Support I already reverted this for myself, but it's quite jarring to see the new narrow style when I am not logged in. Change is not always good, and I have long been opposed to this stylistic choice that most website seem to be adapting. Quite frankly if I lose the ability to keep the 2010 version, I'll stop contributing completely. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
307. Support The 2010 skin is so much better than the 2022 vector skin. The issues I have are that it messes up templates and view due to the very narrow width. Noah^Talk 05:16, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
308. Support I tried the new look for a couple weeks, and I dusted this account off solely to share my thoughts. I think it is admirable for the WMF to try to modernize the look of Wikipedia, but the design and execution feels slipshod.
     • The design feels flat and too suited for mobile rather than desktop viewing, as many have already complained about. The ToC sidebar is an interesting addition, but as some pages lack a ToC, the margins of body text thus differ and create a jarring viewing experience. I prefer a persistent sidebar, either as it was or perhaps with the ToC existing as a tab in that space that can be toggled on or off by default.
     • I use a high-resolution display and must keep my web-browser zoomed-in to a small degree (usually 110%) to make pages comfortable to view. Zooming to this degree in Wikipedia hides the toggle-width button, filling the page with white and stretching text from end to end, unless the ToC is otherwise present. Incidentally, being logged-in unrolls the editor tools menu to the right, counter to the ToC or menu sidebar. Though this still creates whitespace, the body of the article is restricted to a more comfortable reading space. Considering I am primarily a reader and use Wikipedia on many devices, any option that requires logging in to enforce a design, whether to make Vector 2022's layout more palatable or to revert wholly to Vector 2010, is not optimal.
     • Some have noted the rollout of Vector 2022 on other language Wikipedias, so this update creates (some) inter-Wikipedia design consistency, though no other English-language WMF projects besides MediaWiki use the new skin. As I prefer Vector 2010, I think the skin should be rolled back to maintain consistency with the other English-language WMF projects. If inter-Wikipedia consistency is the goal, then should not all sites be held to a common design standard, including their infoboxes and templates?
     • I could get used to a new design but this isn't it. Maybe Vector 2010 with a sticky header? Personally, I'm a fan of the "2010s-esque skeuomorphism and unnecessary gradientage," as nicely described by Cessaune; even returning those elements to Vector 2022 would be a small win for me. Additionally, I feel like those design elements are endearingly kitschy, driving home the fact that you are indeed browsing an encyclopedia. Byzarru (talk) 08:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     It's not that the skeuomorphism is bad, it's just dated. WMF isn't going to budge on trivials like those. Cessaune [talk] 00:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That grey gradientage is the only thing of V10 that I don't care if they remove. Æo (talk) 00:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I didn't mean to imply you said it was bad! I just thought what you said was poetic :) Byzarru (talk) 19:18, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

309. Support the new skin is ugly. Don't fix what ain't broken. Wikipedia has always had a minimalist design and loads quickly, I don't see the point in changing for the point of change. There appears to be lots of wasted space with the new skin, see the screenshots above. I don't see the new skin as an improvement. Oaktree b (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
310. Strongly support - I don't like the new skin, no wikipedians like it, no non-wikipedians like it, and quite frankly it should never have been changed. The original design was iconic, instantly recognizable and widely understood by everyone. We need to change it back ASAP. --- Tbf69 userpage • usertalk 19:47, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
311. Support. There was never, as far as I can tell, a consensus to change to the new skin in the first place. Nor have there ever been convincing arguments to do so; aesthetically the new skin is hideous (and while this is subjective, visuals are a main part of the purpose of a skin, so it is part of what we are being asked to evaluate.) In terms of functionality, the foundations own survey showed that new editors had an easier time with the older skin. It is true that a great deal of work was wasted on the new skin, but that sort of sunk cost thinking is a terrible way to make major decisions like this (and is part of the reason why it's better to put them before the community; clearly the people who decided to waste resources developing the new skin had massive incentives to make it so their work was not "wasted." Hence why they eg. misreprented their own polling and generally did everything they could to force it through.) But from the perspective of anyone without a vested interest in the new skin's success, it is clear that the previous one was superior in every measurable way. EDIT: Just to clarify, in case the WMF makes some attempt to massage the votes to try and salveage this: I want Vector 2022 entirely gone as the default skin and for no version of it, or any skin in any way derived from or inspired by it, to ever be the default skin, ever again, under any circumstances. I do not want any further money, time, or effort to be spent on improving it or refining it; it is unsalveageable and its core problems fundimentially poison it at the root. The underlying problem here is not just Vector 2022 but the "double down" mindset that leads the WMF to continuously pour good time and money after bad because nobody wants to be responsible for a failure. But it is precisely because of that mindset that it's important to accept community feedback, recognize that Vector 2022 was a mistake, and drop it so resources can be reallocated to more promising areas. --Aquillion (talk) 09:46, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I disagree with the statement that it is unsalveageable and its core problems fundimentially poison it at the root, but you never actually listed what you thought were its core problems. Can you elaborate on this? I'm intrigued. Also, there is literally zero chance that a refined version of V2022 isn't deployed within eighteen months if they revert back to V2010. It'll probably be deployed by 2024. Cessaune [talk] 13:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

312. Support Every non-Wikipedian I've talked to about it greatly dislikes the new design, and I agree - while I don't see it myself in daily use (I use Monobook) it does unpleasantly resemble a mobile website and feels like change for no other reason than change. I'm all for change, but not this one - there's really nothing gained, and there was no clear consensus from the community for it, unmet conditional supports aside. -- a lad insane (channel two) 09:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
313. Strongly support if this had been the version back in 2005, I would probably never have become a Wikipedia editor. When I am logged in it is ok (I changed my preferences so that I have the "old" version), when I am logged out it is horrible. What I miss most in the new version: no link to an article's common- or wikidata pages, no "What links here" link; those are links which I use all the time. Instead you have lots of white space(!), Huldra (talk) 20:59, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Huldra All the links you stated are still there, they're just on the right side of the article content, or under the "tools" dropdown if you hid the thing. I do agree that the implementation of pagetools was bad. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Sorry, User:Aaron Liu; I cannot see it, (not when I'm logged out); there is nothing on the right side of the article content. I cannot even see a "tools" dropdown, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Ah, @Huldra, pagetools isn't deployed for logged out users yet. However in that case the full sidebar will show up when you click on the controversial hamburger button (three horizontal lines, ) Aaron Liu (talk) 00:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

314. Support A new skin may be needed, or a nice option, but 2022 breaks articles and is much less user intuitive, even if it looks slightly more modern. Glman99 (talk) 16:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
315. Strong Support per some arguments above by User:Cessaune. I, personally, don't like the new TOC at all. Also see my previous comment about statistics as they were presented. --Stux (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
316. Strongest EVER possible Support Vector 2010 is the best skin. Vector 2022 makes Wikipedia unrecognizable. -SonicIn2022 (talk, sandbox)
317. I'm really sorry, but this thing is just broken. Not only are all relevant features and links hidden behind obscure icons. I can't make anything stay open no matter what I do. Certain interactions like repeatedly clicking the "random article" link are just painful now. What's the point? Why hide everything? Is the plan to make Wikipedia read-only for people without an account? That's seriously the impression I get from this downgrade. 62.27.194.209 (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
318. Support - I have been editing on my phone for 3 years and 2022 feels like a slap in the face to someone who is used to the mobile interface for so long

     this had a consistency issue and I like the old desktop interface as it makes sense for editing on a computer and browsing articles

     I WOULD NOT EVEN WANT TO USE IT ON MY PHONE Pondekuda46 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

319. Support I’ve been using the redesign a good bit since I tend to use Wikipedia logged out. There is two things about the redesign. The first is the search, which seems to just be the same as the mobile app’s, but with a search results page which should fix the problems I have with that, though I haven’t used it enough to be sure. The 2nd is the ToC on the side, which I have gotten the occasional use out of. But that’s where the good will ends. Even the ToC is very flawed, subsections aren’t shown at first as they were before, which takes away from usability, and if you dare hide it you’ll be sent back to the top of the page, without an inline ToC to help you get back. And the new ToC comes at a cost, Current Events, Community Portal, Random Article, Wikidata Item, etc are all hidden in a menu at the top of the page, as are languages. The languages being moved is particularly egregious, as I have no way to know if an article is featured in another language, which is a loss of information (if a minor one) from vector 2010, which should be avoided. And as many who are better at articulating their thoughts than I have noted, the circumstances of the previous RfC seem kinda sketchy, which is really the most important part to me. MRN2electricboogaloo (talk) 18:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
320. Support per Kerry. I prefer to minimize clicking and scrolling, and like to see the menus as before. White space on both sides seems wasteful on other sites and I would prefer that users who aren't logged in don't have that experience. No hostility intended to anyone; I wish we could avoid conflict. -- econterms (talk) 03:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
321. Strong support per Tarkalak The new skin is hideous. It looks like a mobile app. The menus are hidden, it is harder to change language and it wastes half of my screen with white space. It is harder to read and navigate. The fact that you cannot get rid of it without creating ana account is the worst part. I literally had to create an account to use wikipedia. Why is this forced as a default at all? Tarkalak (talk) 07:42, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Because the wikimedia foundation believes that this is what people want, and the foundation cares very little about how it impacts the rest of us. If you look throughout the history of the Wikipedia foundation you’ll discover that virtually every major decision they’ve made concerning Wikipedia has been met with massive pushback - and on one occasion, a civil cyberwar over the deployment. The foundation doesn’t listen, doesn’t care, and doesn’t take it back. Ever. Ultimately, this rfa is more about prosecuting User:ProcrastinatingReader and User:ScottishFinnishRadish for there piss poor closure of the original rfa which in no way shape or form condoned the rollout of this monstrosity whatsoever than is it about putting the original skin back in circulation. 2600:1011:B14C:3627:708D:5000:8B2:7071 (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     1. Tarkalak you don't need to say "per myself" if the opinion is from you lol

     2. IP, please read User talk:ProcrastinatingReader § Review of your closure. It is considered by the closers that the conditions outlined in the close for an RfC-free deployment have not been met. And please, Wikipedia is not about "prosecuting", CIVILITY is one of the five pillars and no-HARASSMENT is one of the WP:POLICIES. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Also, an RfA is a Wikipedia:Request for Adminship. The abbreviation you were looking for is RfC (Wikipedia:Request for Comment). Aaron Liu (talk) 13:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     foundation doesn’t listen, doesn’t care, and doesn’t take it back Ever heard of Wikipedia:Superprotect? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

322. Support - in the previous RFC, I raised concerns about WP:ACCESSIBILITY [6], principles of universal design [7], research presented by developers in support of the new skin [8], the impact of the removal of the TOC from the top of articles and what was described in the discussion as "major community worktime issues that come from needing to redesign very large numbers of articles to match this layout better" [9], the lack of information about WCAG compliance for each feature of the new skin [10], more concerns about the TOC, WCAG, and the limited information from developers about research relied upon [11], and "the issue of whether sufficient credible, valid, and transparent research (both in studies, which we have been asked to review and have since extensively questioned, as well as user-testing, which has also been questioned) exists to support the new skin as well as making it the default does not seem to have been addressed", WCAG and the TOC, with an overall suggestion to make the new skin an option but not the default [12]. The discussion here does not appear to have addressed these concerns, and it appears that further substantial concerns have been raised about having this new skin as a default that unregistered users cannot change. I think it seems easy to say 'if you don't like it, don't use it', but given the substantial change in the appearance of articles, anyone who creates content cannot necessarily ignore the impact - the basic structure of articles no longer function as they have to present information (e.g. the lead, the TOC, images, tables), and the overall appearance of the new skin is glaringly bright (which may account for some of the repellant effect), and ultimately, the challenge presented by these new features (how does encyclopedic information get presented in a format that is designed to not be encyclopedic?) seems unacceptable to impose as a default. Beccaynr (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
323. Support due to unregistered editors not having the ability to go back to the old skin. We should have a different url for the old skin like old.wikipedia.org similar to old reddit that allows us to use the site in the old skin. 2409:408C:8E8B:F446:0:0:43C8:1313 (talk) 08:27, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
324. Support. - Thelaftwardbard (talk) 15:55, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Thelaftwardbard please note that this is an RfC discussion and WP:not a vote. You have to give a reason. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:07, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

325. Strong support Just the way other language versions of an entry are now hidden behind a drop-down menu is enough to undo this change. It is a bad user experience. However, I also support the return to Vector 2010 on procedural grounds. Ds77 (talk) 22:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
326. Support. - I understand the impulse to change the skin. I see the value in some of the ideas here - a scroll-along table of contents is a good idea, for instance, even if this one requires more clicks to accomplish anything and hides most of the sections by default. Unfortunately, Vector 2022 simply isn't close to production-ready, and as it is, it makes reading Wikipedia less pleasant and less practical. Some of the problems can be fixed; I note the work going into fixing the accessibility nightmare that is disorganized and dividerless stark high-contrast design, for instance (please, please learn from all the accessibility crises Discord has caused every time it tried to 'fix' light mode in the name of accessibility; these things are hard, and common accessibility standards and best practices interact with common design trends to create accessibility-damaging results). Link colours can be changed back to differentiate in-wiki and out-of-wiki links, supporting readers again. The change of content width between page-reading and technical pages, the disappearing right sidebar when viewing history/editing/checking contributions/etc., can be dealt with. Other problems are deeper - hiding the former left sidebar material (including the very useful 'what links here' button) away under an awkward and out-of-the-way sandwich menu button actively makes the wiki harder to navigate for 'advanced', but is hard to solve when using the left sidebar space for the table of contents. This system needs rethinking, not just to help editors, but to help Wikipedia readers. 2607:F2C0:EAC2:1940:240C:A969:9EBA:9833 (talk) 04:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Wait, discord tried to fix light mode? Tell me more! Aaron Liu (talk) 12:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     The big move was in 2019 - after jokingly getting rid of light mode for April Fools Day and being hit with a backlash from people who needed it, they decided to take the mode seriously at last, recognizing its necessity for accessibility. They decided to look into why so few people were using light mode, and learned that non-users wanted light mode to have a light sidebar and higher text-background contrast. The result was a light mode that was brighter and starker, with harsher text against an overwhelming white background, and that did less to differentiate between sections of the interface - better for some of the people who had been avoiding light mode, and an accessibility disaster for many who had been using it. After extensive angry feedback, a dark sidebar option was eventually added again. 24.246.2.244 (talk) 13:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

327. Support. Yes oh yes - it would be great if the community finally told the WMF devs to stop trying to make Wikipedia into something it is not. Please note; I was only just now made aware this RfC even exists, by coincidence. This needs to be broadcast to every registered editor on Wikipedia, otherwise it will likely just be dismissed as a minority opinion. CapnZapp (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
328. Support is the only option for me. The WMF shouldn't have fixed a few issues and then assume the could proceed with the rollout. That might be acceptable for MINOR changes where the raised issues are very clearly defined and demonstrably fixed, but this was far too complicated for that. After fixing issues, another RFC/vote was in order to establish consensus to roll out Vector-2022. If the original RFC would have had overwhelming support that may not have been needed, but it was roughly 50/50. Whenever I visit Wikipedia on a device/browser on which I'm not logged in it bugs me now. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
329. Support The vector interface seems less visually appealing (new logo), less useful (new table of contents), and overly modern (total removal of useful lines). User1042💬✒️ 21:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @User1042: I have moved your !vote to the bottom of the support section as it should be according to chronological order. Note that both the old skin and the new skin are called vector, the former "Vector legacy (2010)" and the latter "Vector (2022)". Cheers! Aaron Liu (talk) 21:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Yes, a very unfortunate choice of name. It's almost as if the WMF wanted to present us with a fait accompli, with the new skin usurping the incumbent's name, and the existing skin condemned as "legacy". Certes (talk) 22:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I think it's because the change didn't move as much things as other skins (Standard->Monobook, Monobook->Vector), it preserves the layout while changing buttons into icons and a menu, changing the link color, applying a width, sticky header, and changing the background colors. These changes aren't nearly as large as other skins and is more of a visual refresh. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Actually, I think that the differences between Vector 2010 and Vector 2022 are more extensive and impacting than those between Monobook and Vector 2010. Æo (talk) 13:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

330. Support. I've tried. I've been using it and it's just clunky. The old interface just gets things done better. It uses space better. It's most efficient. It feels more understandable. As a group we need to learn that change for the sake of change often isn't a good thing. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
331. Support. The previous version is better, specially in the use of the space and readability. Alexcalamaro (talk) 10:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
332. Support The new default skin makes navigation more difficult and it harder to read on various screens.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 19:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
333. Support Rollback - I've already commented on this page several times, but to "officially" add to the poll - the changes to navigation in particular really need to be reverted. Like moving the TOC, hiding the side banner, moving the tools menus, hiding links in drop downs, etc. See also my comments here. - jc37 19:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
334. Support unless IP users can change the skin back. It's the IP users who are being the most affected by this, since the rest of us can just log into our accounts and change the preferences. Also, there was no consensus to deploy the skin (Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022)) and all of the white space is really bugging me. ‍ ‍ Helloheart ‍ ‍ 04:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
335. Strong Support - Not only does this new skin embody Flat design (which is not only aesthetically unpleasing to many but has also been psychologically proven to be less usable than other obviously skeumorphic designs), it also attempts to be mobile-friendly, despite there already being a mobile skin for Wikipedia which works perfectly well. Tux9001 (talk) 13:52, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
336. Strong Support - Hideous. Nearly impossible to navigate! Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 15:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
337. Strong support. First, the last RfC, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deployment of Vector (2022) should clearly have been closed as "no consensus to deploy." Second, the new skin is overreliant on cryptic abstract symbols. This style is particularly unfriendly for the IPs and new users. The 2010 vector was much better. Nsk92 (talk) 18:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Completely agree. Wikipedia is hard enough to learn without needing to figure out all of the weird little symbols and remember them. Accessing fundamental pages such as the watchlist should be as easy and intuitive as possible, and the lines with a star is only recognizable to those who are already familiar with it. Roundish ⋆tc) 14:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

338. Strong support While I have an account I frequently use Wikipedia at work where I don't want to/can't sign in so I've resorted to a bookmarklet/manually typing ?useskin=vector on every page because it's worth my time to do so. My main complaints are the sheer amount of whitespace, languages being harder to access, and the sidebar being hidden away. I think the ToC in the sidebar is maybe a good thing, but I'd prefer the regular sidebar. Until IP users have an option to save useskin (even just reading it from a cookie in addition to the GET variable) or a major redesign I do not think it should be the default. 170.112.1.251 (talk) 20:03, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Note that you can move the sidebar to the sidebar by clicking on the upper left Hamburger button Aaron Liu (talk) 01:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     That's not sticky for IP users, have fun clicking it every time you load a new page. (The above IP user is me) Pk11 (talk) 10:26, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

339. Strong support I only found out about this change when my browsers logged me out today, but I've been living with Vector 2022 for a while as I also read and edit w:fr where it has been default for some time now. I've never acclimated to it there, and somehow w:en's implementation feels even more half-baked. marsdeat^Talk 01:07, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
340. Strong support roll back the default for everyone, including logged-out users. Vector 2022 makes navigation much harder, and Vector 2010 was better. Vector 2022 should remain a non-default user-selectable option. GretLomborg (talk) 23:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
341. Very strong support The new set-up made Wikipedia almost unusable, and I switched back as soon as I could. Multiple other people who don't edit here find the set-up difficult/annoying to use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kew Gardens 613 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
342. Support I prefer a properly sized and visible TOC below the article lede. Fischer47392 (talk) 11:51, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
343. SupportVector 22 makes Wikipedia a living hell with its excessive whitespace, sticky header, and consensus-less implementation. The Emaciator (talk) 17:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
344. Support, I was absolutely appalled to see that the largest concern of all was completely disregarded in the implementation. It was quite clear in the consensus that a clear and accessible fixed-width toggle should be made available for all. That a fix was not implemented should be more than reason enough to roll this change back.
     I also have some accessibility concerns that help to support the idea that the change was wholly unnecessary. For example, the FAQ states that they moved the translation links to the top of the page because from the readers' perspective, the sidebar is not a place for useful links. Most readers focus on the content area. This explanation makes perfect sense when you consider that editors can see translation links in the header. But only them. For the average reader, the tippy-top of the page is also not a home for useful links. Mebigrouxboy (talk) 05:30, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
345. Support; the new layout is not an improvement. Mixing in-page navigation with site navigation is confusing; they should be separate. The "hamburger" menu icon is effectively mystery meat navigation to anyone other than a web developer. The "hamburger" is hidden when images are turned off. I'm not opposed the change but this could have been so much better if the devs had actually listened to the community. But at least they've now un-hid the log-in link. Baffle☿gab 02:34, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @Baffle gab1978: Hello, I was wondering if you could expand on the hamburger menu interaction with images? Is that documented somewhere? Thanks, CMD (talk) 15:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     I think they mean if you have a WP:NOSEE option that hides all images enabled, the icons will disappear. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

346. Support: I find Vector 2022 to be substantially more difficult to navigate. I have finally decided to comment following statements from SDeckelmann-WMF that a rollback should only be done (if at all) for logged in editors. To me, this communicates a distressing disregard for IP editors / readers who can't opt out of the WMF-dictated change. As an occasional IP editor who gave up using an account in frustration at the WMF and WP "leadership", I am outraged by (but not surprised about) the disdain directed at the WP community in general and its most disrespected members (the IP community). I accept that may not be the WMFs intention, or SDeckelmann's intention, but it is the effect from my perspective. The success of Wikipedia arises from its mission and the countless hours of work from its volunteers. The WMF is meant to serve the needs of the community, not to act as if the success and achievements of Wikipedia are the results of its own work. I seriously doubt that the message here will be respected, sadly... but you have annoyed me enough to formally register my view. Undo the change, return to Vector 2010 as default for everyone, and make sure future developments are opt-in. 172.195.96.244 (talk) 11:19, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
347. Support I'm not against change, but I do expect changes that go live to be improvements. I suppose this option is a compromise most can live with, but in truth I'd prefer that we rollback to Monobook by default - for those newer editors who haven't yet tried it, your preferences still let you upgrade to Monobook. ϢereSpielChequers 10:32, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     On what rational basis is there any reason to believe that Monobook, a skin that's almost 20 years old, is demonstrably better as the default for the majority of readers and editors? Your comment is verging on being a parody of the inability of Wikipedia editors to accept any change, no matter how carefully implemented. Vector 2022 underwent years of rigorous, iterative testing where piece by piece, they've proven that it improves the efficiency of navigating the site for most people. It continues to constantly be updated including in response to comments in this very RFC. Steven Walling • talk 20:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Vector 2010 > Monobook > Vector 2022 --- 212.5.158.191 (talk) 01:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     This kind of offhand comment just proves the point that most of the Support comments here are based on I just don't like it, which is not even remotely a representation of how we should make a decision about the default interface for >41,000 active editors and 800 million monthly visitors. Steven Walling • talk 17:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     A lot of Support arguments boil down to I hate it, while Oppose arguments generally boil down to I like it or it's fine. That's the nature of such a large-scale RfC, especially one dealing with visual stuff. Cessaune [talk] 18:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

348. Support I left the English Wikipedia in 2015, but I am still active at the Dutch and German Wikipedias. I can't say I'm looking forward to the introduction of Vector 2022 there. Vector 2022 leaves a large portion of my wide screen unused. The languages menu is messy and common buttons like "Contributions", "What links here" and "User Contributions" are in places that are hard to find. I haven't even been able to find out where the "User Contributions" have gone. Sijtze Reurich (talk) 08:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Both User Contribs and What links here are under the tools menu. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:58, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

349. Strong support - absolutely atrocious interface and frustrating to use, who wants to see a scroll bar in the center-left part of the screen, cutting into the article space??. At the very least, give us all (including IPs) an easy way to go back. When will people learn, don't fix what ain't broken.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 17:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
     • Exactly. Google’s been making waves for not changing anything for over 30 years and they hold the #1 spot on most visited web pages. Take a page from their playbook and ‘’’leave it alone’’’. Seriously. Stop changing shit when it don’t need changing. 2600:1011:B14C:3627:F17A:E283:1AFF:2596 (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

       Sorry, but Google changed a lot in the past 25 years (since its inception). Have a look at this snapshot from 2010. While the background for Google never changed (Wikipedia changed from pure white -> monobook -> gray with gradient transition from white -> pure white), the rest of the changes to Google since 2010 are about the same as the changes between v10 and v22. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:47, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

       I see the word google, a search box, and two buttons for getting results, just like it is today. Anything beyond that is irrelevant, because the background changes I don’t see are none of my business. The interface hasn’t changed, that’s why I love it: I don’t need a doctorate from MIT to navigate the site, it’s intuitive, something Wikipedia’s front page is not. 2600:1011:B14C:3627:F17A:E283:1AFF:2596 (talk) 04:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

       The interface pretty much changed as much as Google. “Everything else” is pretty relevant, and even if they aren’t, the core part of Wikipedia, searching for articles, didn’t change either, it’s still a search box at the top. (Also note that [13] exists)

       Both lists below only list changes viewed from the front page/main page

       Google changes

       • Flat design
         • Flattened logo
         • Material design buttons and other elements
       • Removal of links
         • Even more top links put into a drop-down, including settings
         • Moved some to a separate panel at the bottom of the page
       • I’m feeling lucky functionality changed from “jump to first result” to “Random Google hijinks”

       Wikipedia changes

       • Flat design
         • Wikimedia design buttons and other elements
         • Plain icons (only relevant to editors) replaced major text buttons
       • More focus on articles
         • Removal of links
           • Even more top links put into a drop-down, including settings
           • Moved some to a separate panel to the right of the page (only for logged in users)
           • Collapsible sidebar

       Aaron Liu (talk) 12:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

       That's not a fair description. I'm counting 19 links and buttons (1 to a promotional feature) on google.com in 2010 and 17 in 2023. It might seem that there are a lot fewer links because three of them were replaced by icons, and many were moved to a new panel. Vector 2022 placed more than two thirds of the links behind an icon that's easily overlooked by unfamiliar readers who don't expect mobile icons on a PC. P.S. It doesn't help that most of the drop-down icons on Wikipedia now appear to be lazy loaded; this is something that absolutely needs to be changed. Daß Wölf 12:35, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

       Fair. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

350. Support a rollback; the design of Vector 2022 emphasizes the wrong things. In addition to the unused space, V22 seems to further "wast" space by emphasizing translation a lot more; from personal experience, I never really use the translation features on a regular basis. If anything, though, we should update all designs to more prominently feature the ability to change the look. With two quick clicks, we can get Vector 22, Vector '10, Monobook, even Minerva. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     @InvadingInvader, I believe this is to show the readers the existence of the article in other languages, rather than to emphasise translation. — Qwerfjkltalk 12:34, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

351. Support The main innovation of this skin seems to be hiding things. It hides the sidebar menu behind a dumb hamburger icon to make space for the table of contents, even on pages that don’t have a table of contents, and then it hides parts of the table of contents behind disclosure triangles, because the sidebar doesn’t actually have enough space for a Wikipedia-style table of contents. It should be self-evident that hiding features doesn’t make them easier to use. Microsoft learned this lesson with Office’s interface—they moved features that used to be in drop-down menus, where they were hard to find, into a ribbon, where they were easily visible. Vector 2022 is a step in the wrong direction. 98.97.8.244 (talk) 23:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     Not arguing against you here, just curious: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ribbon hidden by default? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:48, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

     As far as I’m aware, the ribbon interface has always been open by default. 98.97.8.244 (talk) 00:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

352. Support The other option is cumbersome and unwelcoming. Ann Teak (talk) 22:08, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
353. Strong Support The new skin is known to be unreadable and technically sub-par. The UI/UX experts know that responsive design is best, which means the new skin is unworkable. Let's leave the design to the experts, please, and not burden the website with what fashionistas think is trendy.—chbarts (talk) 18:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
354. Support, too many issues, too little compatibility with other skins (ToCs are too different), doesn't seem to be designed for anything but mainspace. —Kusma (talk) 15:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
355. Support. There is clearly not an en.wp consensus to default to Vector 2022 on en.wp.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]