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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 July 9 Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_July_9

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July 9

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Catholicism by country

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. ℯxplicit 23:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Redundant; Catholicism in Italy directs to Catholic Church in Italy, just as Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Copy of Speedy discussion
Arguably, the most bizarre thing is the duplicated categories. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:49, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Objection. Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church is an example of what should be categorised in Category:Independent Catholicism in Brazil, per WP:CONSENSUS of its classification in its infobox and article content, as well as that of the category tree. As for Belgium, the asserted difference between Catholicism and Catholic Church doesn't match the article realm. I'm afraid your reasoning seems to create a problem that simple isn't there. Although the Catholic Party (Belgium) is indeed not part of the organisation, its name does indeed refer to the Catholic Church and hardly things vague enough to merit its own category. Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:25, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is just nonsense. Category:Independent Catholicism in Brazil (if created) would be a subcat of Category:Catholicism in Brazil. Oculi (talk) 10:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please see List_of_Christian_denominations#Catholic_Church (and keep in mind that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church). If ordering Anglo-Catholicism and Independent Catholicism under Catholicism - ergo Catholic Church - would that make the category tree reflect WP:CONSENSUS in the article realm to you? Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The section headers of this article are inconsistent (and thus the section content also is), in line with Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy there should be a section Catholicism instead of Catholic Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
With all the possible civility, the above statement ordering Anglo-Catholicism and Independent Catholicism under Catholicism - ergo Catholic Church makes no sense. In no context whatsoever can Independent Catholics, Old Catholics or Anglo-Catholics be made a part of the Catholic Church. I am personnaly not bothered by the fact that CatholicismCatholicism and Catholic Church are treated in the same article, but these terms are not synonymous. Treating them as identical in the organisation or categories can only create confusion. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Catholicism by country contains a whole lot of articles which precisely pertains to Catholic Church, and thus arguably Category:Catholic Church. While at it, I'm still trying to see the WP:NPOV and W:GLOBAL of the 19th century English Oxford Movement "Anglo-Catholicism equals Catholicism" point of view, especially considering that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it does, as it contains (correctly) Category:Catholic Church by country. Catholicism should not IMO redirect to Catholic Church as it is not NPOV. You will note that Catholicity begins "(not to be confused with Catholic Church) ... Catholicity, or catholicism". You are missing the point: some catholicity/catholicism is nothing to do with the Catholic church, so you cannot merge catholicism cats to catholic church ones. A rename to 'Catholicity in foo' would be fine, indeed speediable. Oculi (talk) 17:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Oculi: Catholicism redirect to Catholic Church, so WP:CONSENSUS seems to not get your point. Do you have any stronger arguments than WP:IDONTLIKEIT? I could support "Catholicity in X" as a secondary best option. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would oppose a rename from catholicism to catholicity. Catholicity is a term used by other denominations than the Catholic Church (e.g. Orthodox and Anglican) to indicate that they are also catholic in a sense. Catholicism on the other hand is a form of Christianity within which the Catholic Church is far the biggest church. But although the biggest, 1) it is not the only church within Catholicism and 2) there is also Catholicism outside church organization. Again a completely different example of the latter is Catholic Art Association. Btw there are also Category:Protestantism, Category:Anglicanism and Category:Eastern Orthodoxy for similar reasons. Category:Catholicism relates to Category:Catholic Church the same way as Category:Anglicanism relates to Category:Church of England. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: Where do you find support for the 1 and 2 assertions in the article realm, please? Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've already given a number of example articles that don't fit in the tree of Catholic Church. As you may expect, I strongly disagree that Catholic Party (Belgium) should be categorized in the tree of Catholic Church, the political party is not part of the ecclesiastical organization. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I fully agree with ​ here: using Catholicity in category names would be a very, very bad idea. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Catholicism is Catholic Church by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC redirect. Feel free to argue that the category tree should deviate, but please apply argments. Chicbyaccident (talk) 07:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Catholicism (term) redirects to Catholicity. A consensus on wikipedia does not overrule the truth, which is that Catholicism is not synonymous with the (Roman) Catholic Church. Oculi (talk) 09:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't discussing "Category:Catholicism (term) in X", are we? WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is determined by an overview of available sources, isn't? So how can a circle argument omitting that be valid here? Chicbyaccident (talk) 09:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The argument is encapsulated at WP:C2D: " If the page names are controversial or ambiguous in any way, then this criterion does not apply, even if an article is the primary topic of its name." The names here are both controversial and ambiguous. Oculi (talk) 12:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Catholicism is more than the Roman Catholic Church (or any particular Catholic Church, for that matter). Redirects pointing to one of several Catholic churches may show a primary meaning but categories need to also be unambiguous. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The two terms / categories are not synonymous. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reverse Merge. It is the Catholic Church categories that are redundant. Catholicism is a larger concept category than the Catholic Church. I believe that by country Catholic categories shoudl be better organized by having a mother Catholicism in XXX category, subdivised e.g. in Roman Catholic... and Eastern Catholic... subcategories, among others. Place Clichy (talk) 12:33, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Churches by dedication

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 09:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Over-categorisation by shared name, see WP:SHAREDNAME. The main category was previously deleted in 2012, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_July_2#Category:Churches_by_dedication, but as that was six years ago I am listing it for fresh discussion rather than speedily deleting it under WP:CSD#G4 as a re-creation. Lists or disambiguation pages may be useful instead of these categories, and Cathedral of Our Lady of the Rosary, List of churches dedicated to Holy Wisdom and St. Mark's Church already exist. – Fayenatic London 21:42, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ohio road disambiguation pages

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 09:37, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per previous discussions (e.g. re chemistry dab pages). Note: We generally don't put category tags directly on dab pages. The talk pages are in Category:Disambig-Class Ohio road transport articles. DexDor (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Palestinian territories

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename 2013 categories and later years; rename categories where there is no date-specific pages for 1982 to 2012, including burials, ethnic groups & youth; do not rename/merge others that do hold date-specific content for those years, but split them to new parent categories at the proposed target category names, to be consistent with other country categories. – Fayenatic London 23:12, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
more nominated categories
Nominator's rationale: rename, follow-up on this earlier discussion, this is yet another batch of subcategories in the tree of Category:State of Palestine that haven't been renamed yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:06, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We should be aware that some templates generate navigation links or parent categories from the two-letter code "ps"; this is currently expanded as "Palestinian territories". This could quite easily be changed (I did so a few weeks ago, but reverted myself). My point is that if some articles & categories for older years will be left with the name "Palestinian territories" while recent history is renamed to "State of Palestine", then links will be broken. Perhaps the best that we can do is to leave redirects, but those are clumsy for navigation in the case of category pages. – Fayenatic London 22:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment while the year-based categories to me are clear, some of the others are less so. For example, burials. Is someone who was buried before 1994 in any sense a burial in the State of Palestine. Also, some of the Ethnic categories include people who died before 1994, and would be purely ahistorically categorized as State of Palestinian people: like Abraham I of Jerusalem for example rolls up to Category:State of Palestine through Category:Palestinian people which supposedly contains "citizens of the modern State of Palestine and their ancestors" which is odd because presumably an Armenian patriarch of Jerusalem has no descendants. This whole category tree seems a mess and a centralized discussion to resolve. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:17, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because Crime in the Palestinian territories includes for instance Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Palestinian National Authority, which lists Hamdi Quran - he was imprisoned by PNA during 2002-2006. Putting such case under State of Palestine which was legalized in 2012/13 is an anachronism. Palestinian territories/PNA was a de-facto entity during 1994-2012 and categories for that period should remain as such.GreyShark (dibra) 06:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support all Fix the Category:Palestinian people later. Don't let that discussion, which is common to many state / ethnicity tree structures, derail this reasonable set of proposals. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:15, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for all general categories, also for annual categories before 2013 (or strictly 17 Dec. 2012, when UNO adopted the name "State of Palestine" for the territories on the grant of observer status at UN. Before that it is anachronistic. The general (not time-limited) categories need to be carefully split so as not to give inappropriate grandparents to categories. It must also be born in mind that State of Palestine has no de facto jurisdiction in the old city of Jerusalem, whatever its de jure claim. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support all. As per general practice, Topic in name-of-country should be the default format for all generic categories covering a topic in a certain tract of land, using the current name of that country. Archaeology of East Timor should cover any articles relative to archaeology in what is now East Timor (a very young country), and so should it be, by default, for most or all topics for the State of Palestine, when a better categorization for a specific topic historically bordered in time is not available. It is the exceptions that need be argued, and I see none here. Place Clichy (talk) 16:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pre-2013 year categories as anachronistic, support 2013-and-forward year categories, and oppose all other (people) categories as needing more nuanced consideration outside of a mass "cleanup" nomination. If Category:Palestinian territories is to exist separately from Category:State of Palestine, we need to avoid absurd situations such as the current one where Category:Religion in the State of Palestine is a subcat of Category:Palestinian territories. -- Black Falcon (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.