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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 December 23 Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_December_23

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December 23

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Category:Populated places in Posen (Prussian province)

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:07, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Propose either
or
Nominator's rationale: The Province of Posen was abolished in 1919. We don't usually categorise populated places by former administrative divisions. I see no reason to do so here, so I recommend deletion.
If it is kept, then it should be renamed to match its parent Category:Province of Posen. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:07, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep While flattered by the close attention that BHG brings to my activities, I must object to this proposal. The proposed category was a solution to tidy up a very messy parent category - Category:Province of Posen. Annexed by Prussia in the 18th century, it survived until the 20th century. Along with Congress Poland, it formed one of of the constituent bodies from which the modern state of Poland would rise. For that reason, it's useful to know what parts of Poland used to be part of the German Empire and what parts used to be part of the Russian Empire. A list of populated places is a useful navigational tool in this regard. A single, non-town article now remains in the parent cat which certainly helps matters as my Polish would not let me distinguish between a town, a factory or an opera house. The alternative is to return to the status ante creation when all the towns were just lumped into Category:Province of Posen; not a satisfactory prospect. Also, it is not entirely without precedent: there are exceptions (e.g. Category:Populated places of the Byzantine Empire). Similarly, the category Category:Roman towns and cities is just a synonym for "populated places" and is extensively populated (with articles). The same can be said of Category:Ancient cities - they are just synonyms for "populated places". There are also categories for places that are not even states (e.g. Category:Populated places in French Polynesia and Category:Populated places in the Northern Mariana Islands. Not entirely happy with the re-name proposal either. In Ireland you have the province of Munster, not the "Province of Munster". Is it the same in Germany? Is something missing in translation? Was it really called "Province of Posen"? An alternative might be Category:Populated places in the province of Posen. But might that lead to confusion with Poznan? Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:18, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • LL, there is no need to be flattered. I encountered this simply because you bring your work to my attention by placing it in cleanup lists.
Now, to the substance:
  1. Yes, there are indeed categories for places that are not even states. It's called sub-categorisation, a process by which we divide up bigger categories. It's great that you have discovered this process of sub-categorisation, but those are currently-existing entities, so the observation adds nothing to this discussion.
  2. Category:Populated places of the Byzantine Empire is not part of any wider scheme of categorising places by former country. We have a Category:Populated places by country, but no there is no Category:Populated places by country. So I dunno whether the Byzantine category should exist.
  3. The head article is at Province of Posen, and the parent category Category:Province of Posen correctly follows that name. Any proposal to change that naming should be made at a WP:RM discussion on the head article, and the categories speedily-renamed to suit.
So that leaves solely with the question of whether to categorise by former administrative division, which has not been done so far other than in the two anomalies which LL mentions.
I can see a case for wanting this, as an aid to historical geography, but I don't think it is feasible under the current crude categorisation system. Doing so would place many populated places in continental Europe in five or ten different administrative subdivisions, for the different eras.
This is particularly problematic in the low countries and in this case in the area from Germany to Russia, where for several centuries states have been created and dissolved, and their boundaries have frequently been radically changed. If we start down this path, we will create a mass of geographical categories for each place which will bewilder readers and be a maintenance nightmare for editors.
It wouldn't even be a matter of adding the pages to a single category for each administrative division. We'd have to chop most of them up by time slice, because a place will often have been a given admin division for only part of that division's existence.
Even London, which has been consistently part of England for 1000 years, has undergone two major changes of administrative boundary in the last 150 years.
Categories cannot do everything, and this is one task that's beyond them. Them info would be better presented some other device, such as historical map overlays or lists. Why not convert this cat to a list? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:42, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Darlington (borough)

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:06, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Consistency with the consensus at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 10#Metropolitan boroughs and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 20#Districts of England. Note that in some cases like Category:Suburbs of Darlington and Category:People from Darlington there are separate categories for the town and district. Per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 September 8#Category:Darlington Borough there was consensus to just have 1 category, however recently we have been splitting categories for district and town such as Category:Hartlepool and Category:Borough of Hartlepool by User:Mhockey so we could split here and have separate categories for town and district. Alternatively we could move back to Darlington and specify that they are for both town and district. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:25, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I agree that the renaming will improve the consistency of naming as per previous consensus. A really paranoid android (talk) 15:21, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hexapods of Europe

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:05, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This is an unnecessary layer in this category structure and is inconsistent with other continents etc. Example similar CFD: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_March_26#Category:Deuterostomes_of_Asia. For info: The creator of the category is now blocked. Note: No upmerge to Category:Hexapods is needed because all 6 articles are in categories such as Category:Collembola. DexDor (talk) 10:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Roman Catholic churches by city and Churches by city (France)

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge/Delete. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:04, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge/delete per WP:SMALLCAT, the Roman Catholic churches categories contain only 2 articles, while the parent Churches categories do not contain any article at all, apart from the Roman Catholic subcat. So this is a double merge nomination, for the Churches and the Roman Catholic churches simultaneously. This nomination and the one below are a continuation of two earlier nominations. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Roman Catholic churches by city and Churches by city (United States)

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Merge/Delete. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:02, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
more categories nominated for merging
Nominator's rationale: merge/delete per WP:SMALLCAT, the Roman Catholic churches categories contain only 1 or 2 articles, while the parent Churches categories do not contain any article at all, apart from the Roman Catholic subcat. So this is a double merge nomination, for the Churches and the Roman Catholic churches simultaneously. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:04, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.