Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q: Why is the attack not marked as a "Hamas victory" or "Israeli victory"? A: After a long discussion involving over 40 editors, it was decided that the result of the attack has no consensus. In the discussion, there was a split consensus for the attack being a "Hamas victory" and for the attack's result being "Inconclusive".

This article was nominated for deletion on 13 October 2023. The result of the discussion was keep.

Yakhini massacre was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 23 November 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into October 7 attacks. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Ein HaShlosha massacre was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 December 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into October 7 attacks. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Steve Apfel (June 28, 2024). "A legend for Jewish advocacy fell into a hole it dug for itself". Israel National News. On its page for the October 7 attacks Wiki respects the removal from its charter of, "antisemitic language and shifting focus from Jews to Zionists." Benjamin Hart (December 2, 2024). "Jimmy Wales on Why Wikipedia Is Still So Good". Intelligencer. AI has gotten to be quite good at multiple languages, and what I did use it for is to compare pages in English, Hebrew, and Arabic about the October 7 Hamas attack. That was super-interesting, and I found it very useful. It basically said the English one is very, very neutral and the others tend to take one side or the other. Taylor Herzlich (2025-03-18). "Dozens of Wikipedia editors colluded on years-long anti-Israel campaign, bombshell ADL report claims". New York Post. More than two dozen Wikipedia editors allegedly colluded in a years-long scheme to inject anti-Israel language on topics related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Anti-Defamation League claimed in a bombshell report released Tuesday & screenshot of a diff from this article

On 9 April 2025, October 7 attacks was mentioned on Twitter, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: Article redirected before RM was completed, 7 October 2023, from Operation Al-Aqsa Flood to October 2023 Gaza-Israel clashes, see discussion. Moved, 20 November 2023, from 2023 Hamas attack on Israel to 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, see discussion. Not moved, 26 January 2024, from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel to 7 October attacks, see discussion. Moved, 15 June 2024, from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel to 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, see discussion. Not moved, 11 October 2024, to 7 October attacks, see discussion. Moved, 22 December 2024, from 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel to October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel, see discussion. Not moved, 24 January 2025, from October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel to October 7 Hamas-led Genocide on Israel, see discussion. Moved, 11 March 2025, from October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel to October 7 attacks, see discussion.

Section sizes Section size for October 7 attacks (48 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 38,747 38,747 Name 7,094 7,094 Background 10,061 33,303 Warnings 923 923 Events leading to the attack 7,620 7,620 Operational planning 8,135 8,135 Israeli intelligence failure 6,564 6,564 Attacks 2,592 111,589 Participating and supporting organizations 2,203 2,203 Rocket fire 4,459 4,459 Incursions into southern Israel 53,805 92,064 Nova music festival 8,786 8,786 Kfar Aza 1,415 1,415 Be'eri 8,279 8,279 Yakhini 4,332 4,332 Ein HaShlosha 5,180 5,180 Psyduck music festival 1,185 1,185 Re'im military base 3,013 3,013 Nir Am 2,134 2,134 Ofakim 3,110 3,110 Rahat 825 825 Failed plans 1,733 1,733 Hostages taken 8,538 8,538 Casualties 28,626 37,998 Identification of remains 2,559 2,559 Revision of casualty numbers 6,813 6,813 Reported atrocities 97 55,243 Sexual violence 22,723 22,723 Torture and mutilation 21,658 21,658 Unsubstantiated reports of beheaded babies and children 9,787 9,787 Use of hostages as human shields 978 978 Israeli counterattack 4,779 17,523 Friendly fire and use of the Hannibal Directive 12,744 12,744 Reactions 16 42,174 Allegations of genocide 3,263 3,263 Palestinian response 30 13,564 Hamas 6,268 6,268 Palestinian Authority 4,112 4,112 Palestinian public opinion 3,154 3,154 Israeli response 6,234 15,172 Capture and interrogation of militants 7,092 7,092 Arab Israelis 1,846 1,846 International 10,159 10,159 See also 299 299 Notes 819 819 References 30 30 Further reading 381 381 External links 1,711 1,711 Total 346,911 346,911

Reference ideas for October 7 attacks The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: "Detailed findings on attacks carried out on and after 7 October 2023 in Israel" (PDF). OHCHR Human Rights Council: Fifty-sixth session. United Nations. Retrieved 20 August 2024. Rubin, Shira; Dadouch, Sarah; Hendrix, Steve (October 16, 2023). "How Hamas's carefully planned Israel attack devolved into a chaotic rampage". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on October 16, 2023. Retrieved October 17, 2023. See #Hamas Document below. (but this is actually a statement from Abbas' PA) https://twitter.com/pmofa/status/1710630801379922370

Chicdat, what is your issue with these changes? Why are they controversial? إيان (talk) 12:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) They should probably be discussed first, is the only reason why. Sure, we can go through them:

• The image, I support. There aren't that many images in the article, and that one is a little easier on the eye than all the blood and gore later on.
• broke out from the blockade of the Gaza Strip. I'm not positive, but I don't believe sources generally emphasise this portion of the attacks (the breakout). You compared that to the Simchat Torah reference – that is covered in many sources. The word "blockaded" linked to the article, allows readers interested in that aspect of the attacks to do so.
• the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Yes it is true that from a strictly technical standpoint that there was no Israeli territory until the 1949 armistice agreements, but Israel de facto became a country the day of their Declaration of Independence (upon which the League immediately invaded). Palestine is not de jure a country, not being a UN member state, but we would still describe the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip as an invasion of Palestinian territory. This fact is mentioned in many sources.

Feel free to re-add the image as we continue discussing the rest. Chicdat (talk) 12:48, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this good outline for discussion and for your go-ahead for the image. For the other two points:

• broke out from the blockade of the Gaza Strip. This is prominent in sources with sympathy for the Palestinians. Early on, for example, authoritative scholars Rashid Khalidi and Joseph Massad, as well as the prominent Palestinian journalist Mariam Barghouti, have emphasized the surprising aspect of the 'jailbreak' from Gaza. There is also broader coverage (popular and academic) addressing the massive Israeli military and intelligence failure to contain/stop Hamas and prevent the October 7 attacks out of Gaza. The Simhat Torah detail is prominent in pro-Israel sources. I mentioned that detail in the lead to clarify the need for balance per NPOV.
• the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. As the claim is (technically) incorrect, it should not appear in the first paragraph, completely devoid of context. The matter should be treated with nuance in the body where the technicalities and de facto and de jure circumstances can be dutifully and responsibly elaborated. Otherwise it is deceptive and misleading.

إيان (talk) 21:16, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If there is significant sourcing discussing the blockade in reference to the attacks, it could be discussed in more depth somewhere in the article (currently it is briefly mentioned, but only in a position attributed to Hamas.) However, adding it straight to the first sentence of the lead seems like a stretch. See MOS:FIRST - the first sentence should have the most basic dry summary of the subject necessary to orient nonspecialist readers who may not know eg. what the attack is at all; its purpose isn't to present all the various perspectives on the subject. We also do have to be wary of WP:FALSEBALANCE - the fact that sources with sympathy for the Palestinians say something doesn't make it due; what matters is how much coverage it gets overall. What I would suggest doing is expanding on it in the body first with the best available source (possibly using one of the places where it is briefly mentioned already as a starting point for expansion.) Then, based on what you find source-wise and can justify in the body, we could revisit whether this requires more prominent treatment in the lead (and especially whether it should be more than just something attributed to Hamas.) Regarding the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, I don't think that wording is actually wrong (it is true regardless of whether the war was an invasion of Israeli territory), but if people are concerned about the possible implication we could just reword it to something like the first invasion of Israeli territory since the founding of Israel, which is basically saying the same thing in every important respect but avoids the implication because clearly the reader will understand that Israel could not be invaded before it was founded. (Though, we might want to avoid that wikilink because it redirects to the declaration of independence, which re-introduces the problem.) I think that some phrasing of that point belongs in the first paragraph of the lead, since it captures an important part of the subject's notability. --Aquillion (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove "Less than two months before the attacks, King Abdullah II of Jordan lamented that Palestinians had "no civil rights; no freedom of mobility"." from the warnings section, as this seems to be a more general statement rather than a warning. EightAndNine (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Cannolis (talk) 03:45, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Dead Hamas belligerent commanders aren't marked with  † symbols. Or at least it doesn't show that they're dead and didn't command parts of the war anymore.

2D Is Better Than 3D (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2025 (UTC)--2D Is Better Than 3D (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The dagger symbol is intended to denote that someone was killed in action during the October 7 attacks, not later on like the Hamas commanders were. Day Creature (talk) 17:27, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Currently the Infobox lists the “Result” of the October 7 attacks as a “tactical victory”; this is a misrepresentation of the source cited, which characterized the attacks merely as a “tactical success.” In American English, the word “victory” most commonly carries a connotation of a decisive victory in a battle or war, which the October 7 attacks were not in any traditionally understood sense of the word; the October 7 attacks were terrorist attacks against unarmed civilians, not a proper “battle” or “war” between military or even paramilitary combatants. Request changing the “Result” from the current misleading wording (“Hamas tactical victory”) to a more objective, more neutral-POV “1195 Israelis and foreign nationals killed; start of the Gaza War”  —Arrandale Westmere (talk) 03:06, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The October 7 attacks were to a significant extent a military confrontation between Hamas fighters and the IDF, in addition to the attacks on civilians that took place. The terminology used is plainly appropriate. Day Creature (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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In the introduction, it is said that "Dozens of cases of rape and sexual assault reportedly occurred, but Hamas officials denied the involvement of their fighters." but the sources given use very different language: “Initially said to be "dozens" by Israeli authorities, they later clarified they could not provide a number” (...) “Hamas has called for an impartial international investigation into the accusations.” - therefore, I propose the following change:

Diff:

2804:214:8191:FA03:585A:B5F2:146:E514 (talk) 20:23, 5 July 2025 (UTC) 2804:214:8191:FA03:585A:B5F2:146:E514 (talk) 20:23, 5 July 2025 (UTC) [reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. SI09 (talk) 10:21, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Description of suggested change:

In the 'Attacks' subsection, I refute the terminology used here; "6,000 Palestinian militants and civilians infiltrated Israel from Gaza breaching the border in 119 places.". Frankly, anyone that enters a country with the intention of violence, cannot be described as a civilian in any capacity. I recommend amending this article to retain Wikipedia's position of unbiased description of events.

Sincerely,

An individual directly affected by the 07/10/23 attacks.

Diff:

2A0A:EF40:D2D:7301:9EC:C6F0:91D1:8DD3 (talk) 06:11, 10 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Dahawk04 (talk) 12:44, 10 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]