mic_none

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
Do you need assistance? Would you like to help?

If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

  • This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
  • We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
  • The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor.
  • Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
  • Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session.
  • Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc.
If you need help:

If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

  • This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
  • For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

Volunteers should remember:
  • Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants.
  • Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute.
  • Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 with no other edits.
Open/close quick reference
  • To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}}
  • To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).
Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
National anthem of Hong Kong In Progress Styx & Stones (t) 18 days, 13 hours Robert McClenon (t) 2 days, 14 hours Robert McClenon (t) 2 days, 14 hours
Imam Shamil Closed HamzatCan (t) 1 days, 23 hours EchidnaLives (t) 1 days, 21 hours EchidnaLives (t) 1 days, 21 hours
FS Class_ETR_470 Closed Orfibous (t) 1 days, 7 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 3 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 3 hours

If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 06:00, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Current disputes[edit]

National anthem of Hong Kong[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Styx & Stones on 18:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC).Reply[reply]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

This dispute has previously been the subject of an edit war. The key points in contention are the following:

1. What is the legal standing of the March of the Volunteers in relation to Hong Kong? In particular, there is debate over the wording and interpretation of the 1997 Basic Law (Annex III) and of the 2020 National Anthem Ordinance.

2. Should this disambiguation page exist in its present form (perhaps it should be turned into a redirect instead)?


How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

We have discussed this extensively on Talk:National anthem of Hong Kong.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Help us to form a consensus that is in accordance with Wikipedia's policies.

Summary of dispute by Bailmoney27[edit]

"March of the Volunteers" is the anthem of China. I believe that the Hong Kong Basic Law is unambiguous in its adoption of the national symbols of China, which include the national anthem, in Basic Law Annex III, effective 1 July 1997. I have provided my interpretation of the law on the Talk page in question, which was corroborated by a second editor and supported by the CIA World Factbook. This seems to be a dispute over the wording used in the dab page, which probably should be a redirect in the first place, as a dependent territory like Hong Kong cannot have its own national anthem by definition. Perhaps a redirect to "March of the Volunteers" would work better; the historic anthems and protest songs are likely not what a reader would be looking for when searching for this phrase.

Summary of dispute by 82.38.166.227[edit]

“March of the Volunteers” is not the national anthem of Hong Kong.

Although Basic Law Annex III confirmed the resolution that “March of the Volunteers” as the “National Anthem of People’s Republic of China”, it is a respect & acknowlege only. It will not auto applied to Hong Kong unless it is enforced by further legalization (e.g. Article 23), as Hong Kong is running under “one country, two system” as agreed by the Joint Declaration from 1997.

Even the latest “National Anthem Oridance”, the infamous legislation forcing people “respect” and criminalise abuse of the “national anthem of PRC” is also define that “March of the Volunteers” as the “National Anthem of PRC“, not Hong Kong.

A more accruate description is - national anthem of Hong Kong is not exist, “March of the Volunteers” is be used by governement or some individuals for represent of the region.

In the pasted 200 years, Hong Kong have different anthem be used, such as ”God save the King“ is de facto be used for almost 180 years. “Glory to Hong Kong” is used by the majority (please see result of 2019 district council) from the 2019, be regarded as the anthem of Hong Kong and frequently be used in international.

It is important that those songs, including the “March of the Volunteers” is being regonized by the readers how & why they are used as the anthem of Hong Kong and that‘s why the disambiguation page should be exist and record those above. My suggestion and resolution is convert the current disambiguation page into article and explain what happening behind.

Summary of dispute by Purin128AL[edit]

"March of the Volunteers" is China's national anthem, while Hong Kong uses it the represent the region after 1997. Whether the anthem is Hong Kong's anthem or China's anthem but Hong Kong is using it is not particularly stated in the law, so I believe there is room for debate there. However, I disagree with the proposal to completely redirect the page as it wipes out the fact that historical anthems were being used, and other songs that have been considered as the unofficial anthem locally and by international media such as CNN. It is incorrect that readers would not want to know widespread unofficial anthems and historical anthems of a country/region, especially when the time period Hong Kong used God Save the King/Queen is 6 times longer than March of the Volunteers (156 years vs 25 years).

One way to resolve this issue is the keep the page but simplify and reword the introduction, just as pages like National anthem of Norfolk Island.

Another way is to turn the disambiguation page into an article, which I think is the best way to resolve this issue. The use of China's national anthem in Hong Kong and its legal status in the Basic Law and National Anthem Ordinance can be explained. The complex identity crisis and local people's disagreement on the anthem should be addressed with sources in the article, as readers would want to know the reason behind the multiple incidents relating the Hong Kong's anthem, such as the recent controversy of the wrong national anthem being played in Korean rugby sevens and the "boo-ing" of the anthem in previous years. Content can be constructed and/or extracted from China–Hong Kong football rivalry, National Anthem Ordinance, Hong Kong national security law and Hong Kong–Mainland China conflict. Historical anthems during British rule and Japanese occupation should also be mentioned, as of the current date, the British rule of Hong Kong lasted for more than a hundred years, while Hong Kong has only been a SAR of China for 25 years.

National anthem of Hong Kong discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Styx & Stones' Personal Opinion. When I filled out the form to request the DRN, I wrote it as neutrally as possible. To be clear about my own personal stance, I agree with Bailmoney27. The laws are unambiguous when read in their entirety - the Basic Law of Hong Kong has adopted March of the Volunteers as being the applicable national anthem of Hong Kong (as part of the PRC). I also question the need for this disambiguation page at all - since Hong Kong is a SRA of the PRC, and there is very little precedent for similar pages for internal regions of China. Styx & Stones (talk) 20:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

blocked user inserting needless accusations

Off-topic review - user background checking Bailmoney27 is a pro-china user, he did edit to help China hiding they are hosting centralized-camp in Xinjiang which involving genocide to the people in that region. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Xinjiang&diff=prev&oldid=925434381

He is keep re-edit the page back to his ”good version“ which interput the SEO on Google, with the CCP perfer result, now highly be attended under the current Rubgy 7s event.

Coverage of Dispute in Media. Just a heads up that the edit war has been reported in foreign media. [1] Let's make sure to keep this civil and show that we can all come to a rational consensus. Styx & Stones (talk) 23:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Volunteer Statement- I am willing to moderate this discussion. I am aware this is a controversial topic and has received some media attention. As such- I want to make sure that everyone agrees to be respectful, comment on content not editors, and does want to find a compromise because I don't see either side ever agreeing completely to go with the other side's preferred version. Finally- I am aware there was a case on the edit war noticeboard regarding this page- it has been resolved at this time. If any further admin involvement is requested on any noticeboard- this DRN will be shut down immediately since we cannot mediate disputes that are under admin review. As long as everyone agrees to these rules / conditions- I'll get this discussion started. Nightenbelle (talk) 04:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editor Response[edit]

No complaints from me. I absolutely want to find a consensus here, and a neutral third-party certainly seems necessary at this juncture. Bailmoney27 talk 04:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I can agree. Thank's for volunteering. Styx & Stones (talk) 05:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree as I feel like a compromise is needed for both parties, especially since this has attracted media coverage. Purin128AL (talk) 14:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

volunteer comment If the IP user doesn't respond- I think you 3 are capable of solving this since you all are close to agreement already- what do you guys think? Nightenbelle (talk) 13:55, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So, we can continue without IP? Styx & Stones (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We absolutely can. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:16, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Volunteer Statement 1[edit]

Okay, we're going to begin- if the IP decides to join before we are done, then they can.

So- summarizing from each of your statements above- it looks like we have 5 "opinions" such as it is.

  • The entire page should be deleted and made into a redirect
  • Hong Kong, as a dependent territory of China cannot have its own national anthem
  • March of the Volunteers is not the national anthem of Hong Kong- it doesn't actually have one-just a law demanding China's anthem be respected
  • Historical anthems should be recognized in the article
  • There have been numerous unofficial anthems that should be recognized on this page

Would it be possible to write a paragraph that addresses all of these except the deletion/redirect? If we could figure out what that looks like- would it be acceptable for you?Nightenbelle (talk) 18:16, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editor's Statements 1[edit]

Hong Kong is not a nation. As one of China’s two special autonomous regions, Hong Kong is part of the PRC both in law and in reality; therefore, the question of whether or not it has a national anthem is redundant, for it is not a nation. March of the Volunteers is the national anthem of Hong Kong, just as it is of Wuhan, Fujian, Hubei, etc., precisely because it is part of the PRC, as are those other regions. There is the added complication of the Basic Law and the National Anthem Ordinance: I don’t think any of the other editors here would contest that the intent of those laws were to suppress ideas and practices that hint of a desire for independence and to assert Beijing's control. It’s not for us to judge if that’s right or wrong: it simply is (for the time being). Thus, while specific words might seem odd, such as “respect”, the overall effect of the law is to make it clear that the national anthem applicable within the Hong Kong SAR is the same as China’s. The reason why that particular stipulation exists, which is unusual, is precisely to quash any ideas of there being any other national anthem. As for the recognition of unofficial anthems, I suggest that a separate article be created called ‘Protest Songs of Hong Kong’ (or something similar). Styx & Stones (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Basically this to a T. "March of the Volunteers" applies just as much in Hong Kong as it does in any other Chinese province; just as Fujian isn't a country, neither is Hong Kong. Both are equally ineligible have their "own" national anthem.
The Basic Law Annex III, Instrument 1 does make it clear that it adopts the Chinese law defining the national anthem and applies it within Hong Kong effective as of the date of the handover. I would also agree that the National Anthem Ordinance does almost certainly exist to erode freedom of speech/expression, but we're not here to right great wrongs. And for the purposes of this discussion, it serves as a clarification that the Hong Kong SAR respects "March of the Volunteers" as its anthem, being a provincial-level division of the PRC. It doesn't "define" it explicitly, just as Ohio doesn't have a law stating that its national anthem is the Star-Spangled Banner.
I'm really not sure that the topic warrants a disambiguation page or an article. Historical anthems are typically defined on the page of the song itself, and I agree that "unofficial" anthems should be separated from the official anthem entirely, as the use of "anthem" in this case is extremely casual and holds no legal weight. A lot of the information regarding Basic Law and its interpretation could go on as a section on either the article for the Ordinance or the song. Bailmoney27 talk 23:31, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't agree that Hong Kong has the same status as states/provinces in China and other countries (like Fujian, Ohio, etc), but more like a dependent terriorty like Gibraltar, Christmas Island, or Guam. This is due to Hong Kong's status in various international organisations such as the World Trade Organisation and Hong Kong having its own Olympic Committee. I do support the fact that "March of the Volunteers" is not the anthem of Hong Kong, but is used to represent Hong Kong as by law Hong Kong is a territory of China according to Basic Law Annex III mentioned above.
As the unofficial anthems are not recognised officially, it shouldn't be considered the official regional anthem of Hong Kong. But I do believe that its significance should be mentioned, especially since it is known internationally such as in the article here.
While having unofficial anthems in this specific article is not a must, I do believe historical anthems must be mentioned. Historical anthems are always included in anthem articles in wikipedia, which can be a standalone page like National anthem of Russia or mentioned in the article like Advance Australia Fair. It is definitely not suitable to mention God Save the Queen in the article of March of the Volunteers, this page should be kept to mention those past anthems, or develop it to a detailed article to acknowledge the current situation. Purin128AL (talk) 05:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Volunteer Statement 2[edit]

Okay- lets not get lost in a debate that we will never answer to everyone's satisfaction. Hong Kong and its status is going to be up for debate for a very long time. So.... lets remove that debate from this discussion.

So- What if we had a paragraph that said something like "The official national anthem of Hong Kong would be March of the Volunteers since they are part of the PRC. There are several unofficial anthems that are meaningful to the people of Hong Kong such as...... In the past, HK has used "God Save the King." and "I'm sorry I don't know any others off the top of my head" as official anthems when they were under other governments."

Now- I don't think that's a particularly well written paragraph- I'd LOVE for someone to make it better- but would you all be open to a paragraph that touches on some of the complexities- but still gives the technically correct answer of March of the Volunteers? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editor's Statements 2[edit]

With respect, I contest the following statement: "Hong Kong and its status is going to be up for debate for a very long time. So.... lets remove that debate from this discussion." At least from my point-of-view, that is the main point of contention here. Styx & Stones (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For an example, see Purin128AL's assertion that "I don't agree that Hong Kong has the same status as states/provinces in China and other countries (like Fujian, Ohio, etc), but more like a dependent terriorty like Gibraltar, Christmas Island, or Guam", and Bailmoney27's statement ""March of the Volunteers" applies just as much in Hong Kong as it does in any other Chinese province; just as Fujian isn't a country, neither is Hong Kong." Styx & Stones (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That does seem to be the main sticking point here. That one issue of semantics basically could define the whole article. What is the consensus on that outside of the anthem debate, out of curiosity? Bailmoney27 talk 21:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Volunteer's Statement 3[edit]

Hong Kong's status is not something that can or should be decided in this article. And if that is what you all want to do- see WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. There are many sources- valid ones- on all sides, so any decision would be WP:SYNTH at best or WP:UNDUE at worst. So we need to move forward focusing on how to include all sides fairly while retaining WP:NPOV. Are you all interested in finding a way to do that- or will you insist on debating its status- if you choose to continue focusing on its status, I'm afraid I will have to close this as failed as there is no way to answer that question with certainty for all sides. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editor's Statements 3[edit]
  • I'll start with saying that it looks like other editors have... jumped the gun, let's say, on editing the article without any existing consensus. I'll also note that the page for March of the Volunteers seems to have decided fairly certainly (and so far, uncontested?) that the song was adopted as the anthem of Hong Kong on 1 July 1997, as both me and Styx & Stones agree on. I'd say some language similar to what's used on the March of the Volunteers page should be adopted, and also similar to what Nightenbelle has suggested, rather than what's on the page now. I'll propose an article layout below:

The national anthem of Hong Kong is March of the Volunteers, adopted as part of Annex III of Hong Kong Basic Law, taking effect on 1 July 1997. The controversial National Anthem Ordinance of 2020 enshrined the anthem's status in law. As Hong Kong is a special administrative region of the People's Republic of China and not a sovereign state, the national anthem is defined by the National People's Congress.

National anthem of Hong Kong may also refer to:

See also

I don't believe the other two "unofficial anthems" should be added, as they were neither written for the purpose, or as widely adopted. I realize it's a bit wordy for a disambiguation page (WP:DABNOT), but it seems to be warranted for this surprisingly controversial topic. Bailmoney27 talk 20:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That looks good to me. Styx (talk) 23:27, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Uninvolved Editor Statement 4[edit]

Hello: I think that the page layout proposed by Styx & Stones is appropriate. It follows the precedent of National anthem of Macau. That page has adopted the same idea without controversy, so I think we should follow that. In my view, a "National Anthem of X" means an anthem adopted for independent nation X, and Hong Kong has never been an independent nation with its own national anthem--I see the term "National Anthem of Hong Kong" as a misnomer, a mistaken term, along with "National Anthem of New York". What one likely means to reference by that is the national anthem of the nation Hong Kong is under. That means that the March of the Volunteers, the British and Japanese anthems have all been appropriate interpretations of "National Anthem of Hong Kong" in modern history. So, I feel that listing the three anthems equally for the reader makes enough sense. That is basically what National anthem of Macau does (except it does not list them chronologically, which ought to be done here.)

I also believe the proposal contains much detail for a disambiguation page, as Bailmoney27 said. I think that it should contain only the basic details, as National anthem of Macau and most other disambig pages do. Leave details and semantics, such as info about specific laws and the controversy etc., in the main article where they belong. If it's alright, here I give my disambiguation layout proposal:

National anthem of Hong Kong may refer to:

See also

Adam8410 (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Volunteer Statement 4[edit]

@Adam8410: Please do not jump in as a volunteer in this case. Lets not confuse the editors with more than one volunteer. When a DRN volunteer needs help, they will ask. Also, our volunteers are to remain neutral- which means not to have an opinion on the case- what you posted above is clearly an opinion. You are welcome to join the discussion as a participant- but not as the volunteer at this point since you are not neutral.

It looks like we have 2 possible suggestions here- one that explains the controversy and one that does not. Editors- please discuss your thoughts on the two- lets see if we can come to an agreement which one works. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:22, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editor's Statements 4[edit]
  • It seems two of us are in agreement with the wording I proposed above. I'll note again that the article has undergone significant changes since then, would a drastic change in the format be warranted given the consensus here? I imagine it would be undone quite quickly. Bailmoney27 talk 16:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alternate Volunteer Statement 5[edit]

User:Nightenbelle hasn't edited in a week and may be off the Internet for a little while. It appears that there are two drafts, one by User:Bailmoney27 and one by User:Adam8410. It appears that the difference is whether they state that Hong Kong is not a sovereign state, or whether the draft merely reflects that fact without stating it. Are all of the editors willing to agree on either draft? If not, will each editor please make a one-paragraph statement saying what they want changed in a draft for it to be acceptable? When User:Nightenbelle returns, she will resume acting as mediator if this case is still open. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Editors' Statements 5[edit]

Imam Shamil[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Closed discussion

FS Class_ETR_470[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Orfibous on 00:54, 3 December 2022 (UTC).Reply[reply]
Closed discussion
  1. ^ "Wiki revisions and "Glory" and "March of the Volunteers" dispute". Ming Pao Daily.